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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much?

999 replies

twwindow · 27/12/2021 20:18

Isn't it just trying to make the world a better place but making people feel accepted no matter their race, gender etc?

It seems to wind some people up so bad - and it's usually those that are part of a majority group that gets wound up most by it (usually white/men) - is it because they feel threatened?

Whenever anyone stands up for a cause they are automatically called woke - and it's now as if it's a bad thing.

It's sad, I see people fed up with 'wokeness' as code for 'we can't get away with our racist, sexist BS anymore as people are calling us out'.

OP posts:
Blibbyblobby · 29/12/2021 00:20

@NoNotMeNoSiree

It's never a debate. I've started out trying to debate, but have learned which posters really don't want one and have even said so on past threads. You soon realise not to even bother. '' You can't answer! '' Whereas if they actually read posts they'd see that's not the case. Yep, some lurkers might get sucked in, but others see it for what it is or suddenly have their eyes opened.
But the thing is, I do want a debate, and I’ve explained exactly why I keep asking the same question in that context. And I really don’t see why it’s so unreasonable to expect a political movement that wants to redefine womanhood, and thereby every single legal right and social convention that rests upon it, to be prepared to say exactly what their new definition actually is!
foxgoosefinch · 29/12/2021 00:22

Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much?
sst1234 · 29/12/2021 00:22

Isn’t it always that case that when the majority disagree with woke proponents, you then get accused of piling on. Yet another way to shut down other people. The irony really is lost on these people.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 29/12/2021 00:34

@elodie77

*This is actually such a ridiculous conclusion that it has actually amused me. Complaints about that ad were clearly worrying and caused by racism.

That doesn't mean that people who are concerned about wokery are the ones who made the complaints. You also have completely failed to look at this in any objective way - it is males who are gatekeeping access to women's spaces. Any many of them are considering themselves woke. Do you not see the irony of criticising people for something and then doing the same thing yourself in a hugely grand scale?

The people who are objecting to wokery here are mainly women. If you think women had had things good, you are a long way from understanding the problems in society. A very, very, very, very long way.*

You're not making much sense but I'm out as this debate is pretty toxic like much of MN at the moment.

The toxic slur is another way to just shut down debate. It's a very opaque technique I'm afraid and convinces no-one that you are making some profound point.
NoNotMeNoSiree · 29/12/2021 00:34

But the thing is, I do want a debate, and I’ve explained exactly why I keep asking the same question in that context
Ok, fair enough, but when you've got posters on the thread who have said in the past that they don't want a debate, they're not interested in what any one else thinks, you get to a point you just stop and think fuck it.
As they said themselves they're really not interested in an answer.
I agree though that's shit for anyone who really does want to have a conversation.

Flaxmeadow · 29/12/2021 00:36

It annoys me because I see it as USA cultural imperialism being forced on my country, again

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 29/12/2021 00:42

*I asked what does living as a woman mean, to which you said:

What does living as a transwoman mean? Doesn't mean exactly that? Is it really hard to get your head around?

I'm not trying to 'bother' you. Im asking a question that you claimed I thought this was fairly understandable.

How does a man live as a woman?

That's ten times.*

I think that when people repeatedly refuse to answer a simple question and then try and pretend that they have and the reason you've not seen the answer is your stupidity, we know why they've not answered.

Quirkyme · 29/12/2021 00:43

@SarahJessicaParker1

Agree it isn't a problem with people being genuinely progressive and inclusive; it's people and more often companies who pay lip service to inclusion, but have boardrooms full of rich, white men.

Also, the word 'woke' was originally to do with race only. It being co-opted by other groups doesn't sit 100% comfortably with me.

100% agree about the true origins of the word 'woke' and how it's basically been colonised.

Jeremy Vine every week on his show says he is woke and it does my head in.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/12/2021 00:51

I think that when people repeatedly refuse to answer a simple question and then try and pretend that they have and the reason you've not seen the answer is your stupidity, we know why they've not answered.

Always.

Datun · 29/12/2021 00:58

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think that when people repeatedly refuse to answer a simple question and then try and pretend that they have and the reason you've not seen the answer is your stupidity, we know why they've not answered.

Always.

Yep. As an argument, it's remarkably ill thought out, if not downright weird. You know, given you're staring straight at the thread, with all its words and sentences - from start to finish.

Still, I'm often amazed how often one or two posters use it. Year in, year out.

Furries · 29/12/2021 02:09

I think it might be better to just leave @JohnHuffam1812 and @NoNotMeNoSiree to enjoy having a bit of banter for the final string of posts. There’s no point asking them questions, they just respond with various words strung together that really mean nothing.

There’s no point, particularly with John, in asking them to explain more clearly what they are trying to get across. As it goes in circles again of answering with a question.

The “delightfully” phrased lesbians and cocks issue was never properly answered. Is it considered bigoted for a lesbian to not want to sleep with a person with a penis?

I’m still gobsmacked that people twist themselves into knots over this issue. I have not seen any “hate” towards the trans community on multiple threads I’ve read on here. But there is, quite rightly, the strong desire to protect safe spaces for women. These spaces were fought for - and very much needed - because SOME men are not to be trusted. Never have women said that all men are attackers, but it’s the fact that SOME men are which has resulted in certain areas/facilities etc being out of bounds to men.

This is only one of the issues around the whole debate, but it’s the most basic one to mention. People with a penis should not be entitled to use those spaces.

I will join the fight for a safe third space, because I believe it’s needed. Because I think that trans people can be at risk - and that risk, more than likely will come from men. And that’s not right, acceptable or any other word you choose. But the problem is not solved by expecting women to just budge up and shut up.

I’m definitely not as eloquent with my words as others on here. But I am able to read. And on multiple threads, across a few boards, I have never seen hate posted re the trans community. And, if anyone does see any hate, then please report the posts. MNHQ are very good at ensuring that those posts are deleted.

What I do see are women who, quite rightly, are asking that their safe spaces remain, that language and meaning is not erased and that we are not called bigots for doing so. And realising, once again, that men aren’t being asked anything of them!

NoNotMeNoSiree · 29/12/2021 02:16

The “delightfully” phrased lesbians and cocks issue was never properly answered.
I answered that!.
Interesting you say '' delightfully phrased'' though as I only referred to it like that as that is how it was so charmingly put to mr.

Is it considered bigoted for a lesbian to not want to sleep with a person with a penis?
Been answered already.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 29/12/2021 02:19

put to me

Furries · 29/12/2021 02:35

@NoNotMeNoSiree

Right, so in fact you do think that lesbians are "bigoted" if they don't want to sleep with penises. No. READ what I actually wrote. As in you are attracted to who you are attracted to. Why would you say I'm not sleeping with you because you're trans? though? You'd surely just be like saying no thanks and moving on just like you would with anyone else you're not attracted to.
Yeah, you kind of answered, but not really.

So the above seems to imply that a lesbian shouldn’t SAY that they’re turning someone down if they are trans - am I understanding you correctly? If so, what would be an acceptable way to turn them down?

How on earth is a lesbian supposed to turn down someone with a penis without referencing the fact that said person is never going to be someone that they are attracted to?!

Actually, take the lesbian/trans issue out of the argument. Bottom line is, all women should be perfectly within their rights to turn anyone down. And, if they feel comfortable and safe, should be perfectly able to say why they are declining.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 29/12/2021 02:45

If so, what would be an acceptable way to turn them down?*
Just say sorry, you're not interested.
Why is that so hard?
Why do you have to go into no I don't want to go out with you as you're too fat, ginger, black, whatever?!
Just say no thanks.
No explanation needed.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 29/12/2021 02:48

Bottom line is, all women should be perfectly within their rights to turn anyone down.
Agree with that

Furries · 29/12/2021 03:06

@NoNotMeNoSiree

If so, what would be an acceptable way to turn them down?* Just say sorry, you're not interested. Why is that so hard? Why do you have to go into no I don't want to go out with you as you're too fat, ginger, black, whatever?! Just say no thanks. No explanation needed.
And I agree with that, in a sense. Turning someone down on their looks, body odour, dress sense etc should be done without being “mean” for want of a better word.

But how on earth do you turn someone down, based on their biology, without causing offence? Actually, that’s the wrong way of phrasing the dilemma.

There have been instances whereby lesbians are accused of being bigoted for not wanting to have relationships with people with penises. Is it ok to call them bigoted?

If not (which I’d hope would be the sane opinion), how on earth are they supposed to justify their reasoning? Apart from stating the obvious - attracted to the sane sex - which then goes in a circle to being bigoted if you don’t believe that those born with a penis can be women.

I honestly don’t understand how this issue can not be seen by some people. I’m really not trying to be argumentative, or to trip anyone up, etc. Am just completely mystified why it is deemed unacceptable for those attracted to the same sex to voice why they aren’t attracted to someone of the opposite sex.

Furries · 29/12/2021 03:08

*same sex, not sane sex - not going to debate that typo!

ufucoffee · 29/12/2021 07:23

If lesbians don't want to date men then they just say no thanks, they same as we all say to people we don't want to go out with. Why do lesbians have to give a reason?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/12/2021 07:34

Why do you have to go into no I don't want to go out with you as you're too fat, ginger, black, whatever?!

So it's distasteful and insensitive to be out and proud as a gay man or a lesbian? You should tiptoe around the feelings of the opposite sex in case they get offended that you don't want to sleep with them? Because that is what you are saying here. And it's really quite homophobic.

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 29/12/2021 08:39

Do we have an answer to what 'living as a woman' means yet. I've read the whole thread and couldn't see it. Apologies if I've missed it.

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2021 08:46

@ufucoffee

If lesbians don't want to date men then they just say no thanks, they same as we all say to people we don't want to go out with. Why do lesbians have to give a reason?
Why are lesbians in a position where their declared sexual orientation isn't respected and they are actively being propositioned by males?

It would be fine if they were allowed to publicly state 'no males' but they aren't allowed to do that.
If would be fine if they had dedicated spaces which were exclusively female only but they aren't allowed to do that.
If would be fine if they were allowed to retain the language to describe themselves on their own terms and the word lesbian wasn't being culturally appropriated but thats also not allowed.

So lesbians are left in this awful position of not being able to explicit about their own sexuality because the hurt feelings of males are more important than how they might feel being pushed into this position where the only place free from constant unwanted sexual harassment from males is once again clandestine and in the closet secrecy to ensure males don't get upset.

How is that progressive? How is that anything but homophobic?

Homosexuals are protected in law. In theory. The key point being that the definition is same sex attracted. Not same gender attracted.

Where it all went wrong was when Stonewall introduced a definition of homophobia which is institutionally homophobic because it switched from sex to gender and went ahead of the law. This means lesbians in particular are disadvantaged and no longer have the support of the organisation because they cannot simply declare they are same sex attracted without being subjected to emotional abuse and vexatious attacks for being 'transphobic' if they do. They abandoned the rights, feelings and protections of lesbians that they'd spent years fighting for in an instant.

Once upon a time we were told if you were a lesbian you couldn't help that you were only attracted to females. Now saying that is not acceptable. They now have to justify their existence and run the gauntlet of 'but if you just tried it' or stuff about education. Or just hide away.

Thats going back in time to the dark ages.

If lesbians can't just say openly without being questioned / vilified / made to feel guilty for 'being impolite' etc etc for just being who they are wtf is going on?

The dogma is that trans people should be able to just 'be' without question so why aren't lesbians afforded the same courtesy?

Why is the burden of responsibility put on lesbians to 'be nice' and not on trans people to 'be nice' and leave lesbians and lesbian spaces alone? Why isn't a mutual understanding of 'this is a lesbian only group for females only' trampled all over? Why can't there be groups for homogenderists as well as homosexuals and it be a clear social faux pa to intrude?

Why is it that lesbians have to hide their true sexuality to avoid causing offence?

Please enlighten me cos this matters in terms of equality and fairness.

Being open and honest about this, doesn't actively discriminate against trans people - it protects them if you are explicit from the outside because they know that they won't emotionally invest and then be 'cruelly rejected' or 'humiliated' as the whole narrative is set up to emphasis. If you cannot openly say I don't like penises because I'm a lesbian then its the lesbians being discriminated against! There is no 'lets all be nice about this' because you can't change your sexuality. Why should be ignore that once again in the pursuit of the argument that you can't help your gender. Gender and sex remain different things whether or not all trans people want to believe this or not! Because biological reality does not cease to exist to appease hurt feelings.

There has to be a point where boundaries are clearly laid out in order for the interests of both minority groups to be properly balanced, understood and respected. It would be far better to do this early and upfront under the existing provisions of the law which allow for proportionate exclusion in certain circumstances. Being a lesbian being a quite clear example.

Its very much as case of 'stay in your own lane' to avoid a nasty collision and to keep everyone safe from harm.

But no. We get ridiculous arguments about lesbians need to be sensitive and polite because women have to be the emotional crutches to support the fragile mentality of males rather than have freedom from oppression from males and be able to express themselves openly without being criticised for doing so.

Waitwhat23 · 29/12/2021 09:23

I’m definitely not as eloquent with my words as others on here.

I wouldn't agree with this at all - I think your posts are excellent.

Waitwhat23 · 29/12/2021 09:25

@CuntAmongstThePigeons

Do we have an answer to what 'living as a woman' means yet. I've read the whole thread and couldn't see it. Apologies if I've missed it.
Nope.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/12/2021 09:26

Do we have an answer to what 'living as a woman' means yet.

No. Just a lot of "that's already been answered". No, it hasn't, and no amount of claiming it has will make it so. And I have never seen an answer to this question that doesn't boil down to magical woman essence which they can't quite define.

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