Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much?

[twwindow]

Isn't it just trying to make the world a better place but making people feel accepted no matter their race, gender etc?

It seems to wind some people up so bad - and it's usually those that are part of a majority group that gets wound up most by it (usually white/men) - is it because they feel threatened?

Whenever anyone stands up for a cause they are automatically called woke - and it's now as if it's a bad thing.

It's sad, I see people fed up with 'wokeness' as code for 'we can't get away with our racist, sexist BS anymore as people are calling us out'.

Source for ‘most’ please.

I believe if you google you will find some surveys, sone more reputable than others

Make sure you focus on those that act specific questions not obsfucsting ones

Actually look at both as it also helps see what most people understand by different terminology

Also, I don’t believe in ‘gendered souls’ but I do believe the combination of different biology and making their way through a gendered world makes men & women internalise gender differences. You don’t, and that’s ok. As you would point out, not everyone thinks or likes the same things.

@bordermidgebite

I believe if you google you will find some surveys, sone more reputable than others

Make sure you focus on those that act specific questions not obsfucsting ones

Actually look at both as it also helps see what most people understand by different terminology

No, I don’t need to Google it. If someone presents me with a specific piece of information then they can supply their reputable proof. I will happily read and evaluate it, but I’m not wasting time looking for it in the first place.

The response to @Waitwhat23's question goes back to proving my point.

Thanks. This isn't a debate it yet again is a rabid anti trans thread.

The question about "lesbians and cocks" was hive to nonotme, who did not phrase it like that. Its am indication of the standard of debate, and how you are shaping it , that they are now blamed for its phraseology. It was a loaded question which represents an extreme and minority opinion in this debate, but any answer given (as can be seen from the response to others) was just going to get an pre prepared retort designed to stifle and shut down the debate.

On the living as a woman questioning? I did come back and say that I should have said living as a transwoman. But that apparently isn't good enough cause it doesn't allow you tomlaunch into your pre planned diatribes.In common parlance btw "living as a woman" means someone who was not born female living under a identity which allows them to present as being female. Its relatively simple, however it doesn't mean they are living the same life as someone who was born female will live or have the same experiences.

It's been repeatedly said that changing identity on a whim is not agreed with, and pointed out that it really isn't a common occurrence, that mostly trans people spend years dealing with this issue.

The fact that you need to reduce everything to the extremes shows that this isn't really a debate. I did really enjoy being given examples of attacks by trans people in the US but then later being told that evidence about crimes against trans people from the US wasn't relative here, and then that the ONS data was questionable btw.

Oh and I was misrepresented repeatedly. For example saying that JK Rowling hasn't been cancelled apparently meant I thought her getting death threats was OK.

And more

You really need to think about what you are saying when you make special pleading cases for lesbians to treat this group of males differently, Bingbong. I think it's your cognitive dissonance speaking. Woke homophobia isn't superior to any other type.

Rejecting males, for a lesbian, is not merely "one reason" to say no, it's the meaning of the word, it's protected in law. I'm not sure why you have such a blind spot on this. MTF trans people are male. Lesbians are only attracted to female people. That's what the word means. Most people don't share your gender identity beliefs. Talk to people outside whatever bubble you move in.

And for someone calling out people for being vile and aggressive, you need to take a look in the mirror, because I don't know why you've just flow off the handle at me. But I suspect you know what you are saying doesn't make sense. Don't shoot the messenger, please.

@JohnHuffam1812

The response to *@Waitwhat23*'s question goes back to proving my point.

Thanks. This isn't a debate it yet again is a rabid anti trans thread.

The question about "lesbians and cocks" was hive to nonotme, who did not phrase it like that. Its am indication of the standard of debate, and how you are shaping it , that they are now blamed for its phraseology. It was a loaded question which represents an extreme and minority opinion in this debate, but any answer given (as can be seen from the response to others) was just going to get an pre prepared retort designed to stifle and shut down the debate.

On the living as a woman questioning? I did come back and say that I should have said living as a transwoman. But that apparently isn't good enough cause it doesn't allow you tomlaunch into your pre planned diatribes.In common parlance btw "living as a woman" means someone who was not born female living under a identity which allows them to present as being female. Its relatively simple, however it doesn't mean they are living the same life as someone who was born female will live or have the same experiences.

It's been repeatedly said that changing identity on a whim is not agreed with, and pointed out that it really isn't a common occurrence, that mostly trans people spend years dealing with this issue.

The fact that you need to reduce everything to the extremes shows that this isn't really a debate. I did really enjoy being given examples of attacks by trans people in the US but then later being told that evidence about crimes against trans people from the US wasn't relative here, and then that the ONS data was questionable btw.

Oh and I was misrepresented repeatedly. For example saying that JK Rowling hasn't been cancelled apparently meant I thought her getting death threats was OK.

And more

Exactly. If you are in any way supportive of being more inclusive of trans people, you must also hold Stonewall as gospel, want all lesbians to try dick, and hate natal women, with internalised misogyny you’re too stupid to realise you’re carrying.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You really need to think about what you are saying when you make special pleading cases for lesbians to treat this group of males differently, Bingbong. I think it's your cognitive dissonance speaking. Woke homophobia isn't superior to any other type.

Rejecting males, for a lesbian, is not merely "one reason" to say no, it's the meaning of the word, it's protected in law. I'm not sure why you have such a blind spot on this. MTF trans people are male. Lesbians are only attracted to female people. That's what the word means. Most people don't share your gender identity beliefs. Talk to people outside whatever bubble you move in.

And for someone calling out people for being vile and aggressive, you need to take a look in the mirror, because I don't know why you've just flow off the handle at me. But I suspect you know what you are saying doesn't make sense. Don't shoot the messenger, please.

Again, source for ‘most’.

Well summing up 900 odd posts
I think the question in the OP has been answered comprehensively. There is plenty of evidence in this thread of why "wokeness" annoys people so much. Certain groups matter more than others, it seems. And high minded progressiveness has limits when there's virtue signalling to be done.

Every thread where trans comes up has troubling and inflammatory language. ‘Men in dresses’ and the ilk. It’s unnecessary.

If one doesn’t believe in the whole idea of “trans” as a mystical internal soul gender, then what else are “socially transitioned” (ie. not surgically operated on) transwomen if not men wearing dresses?

Why is this suddenly an article of faith and “inflammatory language”? Men in drag are men in dresses. What distinguishes a man in drag, or a priest wearing a robe, from a male bodied transwoman, if you don’t believe in the mystical gender essence? Nothing. How someone feels in the mind does not alter the physical reality of a man wearing a dress, does it? How can this possibly be “inflammatory language” when it is simply factual?

Or is there some kind of mystic essence about dresses, that transforms some men who put them on into women just by the power of belief, but not others?

That’s magical thinking, no? So how come it’s not “inflammatory language” if I talk about priests as men in dresses; but it is if I say a man in a dress is a man in a dress and he happens to fantasise that he has a “feminine” soul?

None of this whole ideology makes any sense. It’s all about policing false categories and feelings and deferring to some people’s ideas of what is “progressive”, when those ideas are by no means actually progressive at all.

Privileging the feelings of men above women’s ability to speak material facts about reality doesn’t sound very progressive at all to me; in fact it just sounds exactly like all the rest of patriarchal history.

Meet the new patriarchy/oppression - same as the old one, except now it’s wearing “woke” clothes.

No, I'm not presenting a thesis, I'm travelling right now. Perhaps someone else will link to surveys in the time left. But if you think most people genuinely believe males are women just because they say they you are out of touch with what people think. Many are happy to live and let live, but they don't extend that to people with penises in women's toilets and changing rooms.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No, I'm not presenting a thesis, I'm travelling right now. Perhaps someone else will link to surveys in the time left. But if you think most people genuinely believe males are women just because they say they you are out of touch with what people think. Many are happy to live and let live, but they don't extend that to people with penises in women's toilets and changing rooms.

Classic.

It hasn't changed since the last time I wrote it

I know! It’s wonderful

The reason the term woke annoys people is because they have a caricature in their head of what a woke person is like and then get annoyed with that. Because, as can be seen here,n if someone believes in one thing then then must believe in the most extreme views of all other groups who are against injustice.

Really as said itss now become a way of dismissing anyone who campaigns for change, which is why its been used against everyone from Marcus Rashford to the National Trust and more.

@foxgoosefinch

Every thread where trans comes up has troubling and inflammatory language. ‘Men in dresses’ and the ilk. It’s unnecessary.

If one doesn’t believe in the whole idea of “trans” as a mystical internal soul gender, then what else are “socially transitioned” (ie. not surgically operated on) transwomen if not men wearing dresses?

Why is this suddenly an article of faith and “inflammatory language”? Men in drag are men in dresses. What distinguishes a man in drag, or a priest wearing a robe, from a male bodied transwoman, if you don’t believe in the mystical gender essence? Nothing. How someone feels in the mind does not alter the physical reality of a man wearing a dress, does it? How can this possibly be “inflammatory language” when it is simply factual?

Or is there some kind of mystic essence about dresses, that transforms some men who put them on into women just by the power of belief, but not others?

That’s magical thinking, no? So how come it’s not “inflammatory language” if I talk about priests as men in dresses; but it is if I say a man in a dress is a man in a dress and he happens to fantasise that he has a “feminine” soul?

None of this whole ideology makes any sense. It’s all about policing false categories and feelings and deferring to some people’s ideas of what is “progressive”, when those ideas are by no means actually progressive at all.

Privileging the feelings of men above women’s ability to speak material facts about reality doesn’t sound very progressive at all to me; in fact it just sounds exactly like all the rest of patriarchal history.

Meet the new patriarchy/oppression - same as the old one, except now it’s wearing “woke” clothes.

It’s not about what I believe, it’s about how some people feel about themselves and their own bodies and identities. I don’t pretend to know how presenting as female helps trans women, but not do I seek to denigrate it by deliberately using language I know will hurt them.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It hasn't changed since the last time I wrote it

@Ereshkigalangcleg I wasn't going to engage further with this thread but the ridiculously dismissive 'classic' response to your post has riled me into action!

As Eresh and others have said, the questions (and the motivations of those commissioning the poll) makes quite a lot of difference to the answers - vague 'be kind' questions vs questions which make definitions very specific - wingsoverscotland.com/transforming-the-question/

@Ereshkigalangcleg it's so funny that you make demands on others for evidence yet when asked present none of your own

[quote JohnHuffam1812]@Ereshkigalangcleg it's so funny that you make demands on others for evidence yet when asked present none of your own[/quote]
I know! As I said, classic! 🤣

@Waitwhat23

Sorry, can’t use that as a source. It’s biased. Next.

It’s not about what I believe, it’s about how some people feel about themselves and their own bodies and identities. I don’t pretend to know how presenting as female helps trans women, but not do I seek to denigrate it by deliberately using language I know will hurt them.

Why is it my, or any woman’s, job to coddle the feelings of men by pretending to believe in some mystical quasi-religious ideas?

Saying “men in dresses” might hurt the feelings of some Catholic priests, but I’m not obliged to pretend these mystical sky fairy robes really confer special delegated godly powers, am I?

Really, a man believing he has a “feminine soul” is clearly magical thinking. Why am I obliged to humour it?

I don’t notice men being subject to social pressure not to say things that hurt women’s feelings. Do you spend time on Reddit or 4Chan telling men that it’s disgraceful to call women sexist names or things like fat, cow etc. because it hurts their feelings?

If not why are you on here attempting to police women hurting the feelings of men?

@Bingbangbongbash

Also, I don’t believe in ‘gendered souls’ but I do believe the combination of different biology and making their way through a gendered world makes men & women internalise gender differences. You don’t, and that’s ok. As you would point out, not everyone thinks or likes the same things.

I do believe the combination of different biology and making their way through a gendered world makes men & women internalise gender differences.

I also believe this, with the latter, socialisation, being far stronger in effect than the former.

To me, the differing socialisation of female and males is, after the different reproductive burden, the most significant element in the ongoing disempowerment of female people vs men in societies that on paper have equality of opportunity.

It is one of the strongest reasons why I don’t accept that a trans woman who “feels like [their idea of] a woman” has no significant differences to and therefore is interchangeable with a female person, no matter how honestly that trans woman may feel herself to be a woman. I believe that to open all the rights, protections and opportunities that exist to help female people overcome the drag of their own socialisation and that of the males around them up to male people who have benefitted from male socialisation even if those males wish they hadn’t or don’t even perceive they did renders those things useless for their purpose.

I’m surprised therefore that you seem to think it’s an argument for interchangeability. Can you expand on your reasoning?

As mentioned in my previous post, there will be biases with almost all sources, given the motivations of those who commission the polls. That's the case with all research, evidence etc. Those with critical thinking skills examine evidence from a range of different sources with that in mind.

As I said before, you are not engaging in good faith so this discussion is pointless.

Why are people not prepared to use language that hurt the feelings of transwomen but are prepared to propagate and support concepts and language that hurt materially women?

Women are paid less , have less representation in politics , in healthcare because of gender assumptions - soecifically the assumptions that women have a gender different to men and that makes a material difference to the capability of women

( gender ie the things about being a woman that is assumed common to females and transwomen )

@foxgoosefinch

It’s not about what I believe, it’s about how some people feel about themselves and their own bodies and identities. I don’t pretend to know how presenting as female helps trans women, but not do I seek to denigrate it by deliberately using language I know will hurt them.

Why is it my, or any woman’s, job to coddle the feelings of men by pretending to believe in some mystical quasi-religious ideas?

Saying “men in dresses” might hurt the feelings of some Catholic priests, but I’m not obliged to pretend these mystical sky fairy robes really confer special delegated godly powers, am I?

Really, a man believing he has a “feminine soul” is clearly magical thinking. Why am I obliged to humour it?

I don’t notice men being subject to social pressure not to say things that hurt women’s feelings. Do you spend time on Reddit or 4Chan telling men that it’s disgraceful to call women sexist names or things like fat, cow etc. because it hurts their feelings?

If not why are you on here attempting to police women hurting the feelings of men?

Because as a woman, I have just as much right to express my thoughts and feelings on this forum - and just as much right to stand up for what I believe is right and against what I believe is wrong.

And I believe deliberately using language you’ve been told is hurtful is wrong.

Would I say the same on Reddit or 4chan? Yes.