to ask if you think a lot of women have really low standards?

[Merryoldgoat]

Just that.

YABU - no they don’t
YANBU - yes they do

I just feel so depressed reading some of these threads.

I’m not talking about women in abusive relationships who are struggling to escape; I mean women who are just putting up with shit for reasons that are beyond comprehension.

You would probably all hate my DO on a day to day basis as he is a bit of a dick but when it counts most I can 100% rely on him without needing to ask..yes he gets away with murder but I don't sweat the small stuff. Nobody's perfect and him being a lazy sod means he doesn't care if I want to be

[quote Merryoldgoat]@TerraNovaTwo

Christ knows! There needs to be a wholesale change in how some men think it’s acceptable to behave but we also need to raise our expectations for our relationships.

I can only take responsibility for myself and my children and I’ll do the utmost to ensure they are not the men acting like arseholes.

@Decemberfinances

I grew up having been abandoned by my father and raised by my mother in a shitty abusive relationship.

There was not a single healthy relationship modelled to me as I grew up.

Maybe I just have a low threshold for wankery.[/quote]
Not everyone reacts to trauma in the exact same way. In fact, if we go by studies you're the outlier. Just like we don't expect every single disabled person to climb Everest, or every child raised in abject poverty to become a millionaire, it doesn't mean that someone being affected by trauma in a different way are somehow less or not special enough or not trying hard enough.

I put up with emotional,financial and on a couple occasions physical abuse from exh as I was so bullied by him that I questioned myself.
He threatened to make me homeless and penniless and five years after our split he is still trying to do that through the courts.
It was only by going to womans aid that I realised how badly I had been treated.
I had a couple of shit relationships after we split as I did not have good boundaries. Now Im happily single as frankly the men online dating are dross and I deserve better.

YANBU in one sense - I’m constantly amazed at what some women are prepared to put up with.

But YABU to think that the cause is women being a bit stupid and not choosey enough. I think it’s because of the deep, ingrained misogyny in our society. Most women have their self-esteem, self-worth and boundaries subtly eroded pretty much from the minute they can talk so that they will put up with shit male behaviour. Some women are fortunate enough to grow up in supportive families who counteract that narrative and some women are fortunate enough to see society for what it is before they choose a partner. But shitty male behaviour is the problem. Not female standards.

Speaking personally I had appallingly low self-worth throughout my teens and in early adulthood and put up with some unbelievable crap from men but I just thought that was what relationships were. I was lucky enough to meet a nice man in my late 20s which made me realise I didn’t have to tolerate bullshit if I didn’t want to.

I don't think women in general have low standards in partners but I suspect that a fair proportion of Mumsnetters do judging by the relationship boards.

@Merryoldgoat
So much this! Bafflement, horror, incredulity at what so many others treat at normal in relationship. Sometimes I wonder if we should licence for relationship. Or insist everyone has to be happy and functional alone first.

More seriously, I do think women collectively need to switch our brains on and have a cool assessing look at the reality of our relationships before randomly having kids because love/lust/everyone does. Men too, who also get stuck in toxic controlling relationships, trying to do right by the kids.

There was a wonderful thread recently about two friends contemplating moving in together and creating a platonic blended family for them and their respective kids. The thought and care, the planning and practicalities, the what-ifs and contingencies - it was beautiful and real. If even a fraction of that thought and care went into the average conventional heterosexual brain-off stars-in-eyes in-love having-a-baby 'decision' we'd all be better off - and there'd be nothing left to read on Mumsnet!

It's just as absurd as forcing young men to work in certain female dominated fields would lead to less crap behaviour from them.
Forcing men into Female dominated fields? Like cleaning your own shit off the toilet or feeding your own kids? Those kind of female dominated fields?

Yep! Women doing double housework, grim men who spend hours watching porn, literally do whatever they want. And the response is "oh but he helps out!"

But you know, so many men are still shit. Fewer options I guess.

OP you were lucky and sensible. Abusers can exhibit all those signs that made you think your DH was a good person. So you were sensible to look for blatant red flags and you were lucky your DH wasn't just a highly sophisticated abuser/narcissist/manipulator.

But I think your first point still stands. There are an awful lot of women who ignore the blatantly obvious red flags. That can be because of abuse, society, conditioning, lack of women-only spaces where this is talked about honestly. Hollywood and the media are also to blame. Time and again they paint red flags as desirable romantic tropes eg the bad boy changed by the love of a good woman; the cheater tamed; the woman giving up her entire life to support him; abusive love bombing shown as being 'romantic'.
There is a lot of work to do to unpick this programming.

@ShinyHappyPoster

I’m talking about all the men who DON’T exhibit decent behaviour from the outset!

I KNOW abusers hide their true selves - it’s different.

I’m saying if it’s after a month and you’ve been out with some twat who won’t buy you a drink, ignored your birthday and spends his money in fruit machines he’s probably not a good bet.

All of those flaws are HIS - they aren’t for us to change. But neither should be put up with them.

I was lucky he wasn’t an abuser. However I was with him for 6 years before getting married and 8 before having children. I decided to risk no children to be as sure as I could he wasn’t an arsehole in hiding.

He’s basically been exactly the same person for 16 years.

Yes.

I chose my DH very carefully and I’m confident that I won’t have to put up with shit (that goes the other way too).

I will say that people can change though. I know a woman whose husband changed from “ideal family man” to sleazy rat within the space of a few years and by that time they had a child so she opted to stay and work with what she had. This guy seemed to be stable, from a nice family too. There were no indicators he would start behaving the way he did. So it’s not always a case of choosing badly.

@FredWinnie

I have a slightly different take People post problems on AIBU and the relationships board, so you have a very skewed sample group to begin with

Many relationships are wonderfully healthy
For example, my DH collected my prescription today because I was feeling lazy
We went shopping together this evening: he paid. When we got home I knocked up some mince pies etc etc.

These are the snapshots you don't get on the boards: we don't post about the good times so much
Maybe we should. Maybe we need a good partners/OH thread where we can offset some of the unhappier accounts.

It might help some women to raise their personal bar, maybe?

I dunno, with some of the people I interact with at work (public transport), I do wonder why they are with such a waste of space.

For a trivial example, it has been so common to see couples in their 20s where the woman is wearing a mask properly but the man has his around his chin. It just makes me wonder what their relationship is like if she is sensible and he appears to be feckless.

On a more serious level, I had a couple on my train recently where he seemed to be expecting her mother to be transferring funds to her to pay for both of their tickets, something she seemed unaware of when asked (separately) if that was the case. He looked well over eighteen, she claimed to be fifteen (and looked it). Alarm bells were ringing in my head with that one, that had all of the hallmarks of the unhealthy age-gap relationships which sometimes appear in threads on here by worried parents - the sort where their teenage daughter has taken up with a manchild a decade older.

I had a friend with mind bogglingly low self esteem who let herself get treated like crap by this guy who was nothing special (that’s me describing him very kindly). I think it was the self esteem. She is now very happy with someone who actually deserves her.

Definitely - I used to be one of them. I used to put up with so much shit. Getting let down at the last minute, no effort, verbal abuse, no emotional support, wondering if men really loved me.

DH has never said a single awful word to me. He’s never made me question him once in eight years.

Looking back at what I used to go through, I’m baffled that so many women continue to put up with this shit for most of their lives. It’s sad, and I don’t blame them for it. Many are probably suffering with low self esteem issues (like I was), or they simply don’t know what a healthy relationship looks like.

@Decemberfinances

I agree with you. I don’t think anyone should have kids unless they are able to support them financially. Even if they are married.

Gambling yours and your children’s security on someone else’s indulgence is like playing Russian Roulette. I think girls should be taught this as a core part of the school curriculum.

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@Decemberfinances

I agree with you. I don’t think anyone should have kids unless they are able to support them financially. Even if they are married.

Gambling yours and your children’s security on someone else’s indulgence is like playing Russian Roulette. I think girls should be taught this as a core part of the school curriculum.[/quote]
So no couples in minimum wage jobs should ever have children? Or where one of them is disabled?

It would mean a large amount of the population could never have kids.

@Decemberfinances

Plus the ' what are men like!' cultural narrative means that even when they complain to friends about partners, their friends may not be picking up on how bad things are either, but just eye-rolling and telling their own tales of their partner's faults, which then normalises poor behaviour, making it harder to spot that this guy is not a keeper.

There is so much truth to this.
People around us, women and men, try and keep women’s standards low.

For example, porn is an absolute dealbreaker for me, I don't believe anyone can be on the side of women if support that misogynist industry.
The amount of peole who has laughted at me and said I will never find a man who doesn’t watch it is unbelievable.
And then sai I need to lower my standards.
I won’t.

@Contactmap

We need to let our daughters know that being single is infinitely better than being shackled to a disappointing man We need to believe that and live it as reality ourselves before we can teach it to anyone.

I really think this is the way.

But there really isin’t that many strong women out there.
Some choose to stay single after kids, but we need women who rather stay single at young, pre-kids age.

@ldontWanna

Plenty of minimum wage single people have kids. Having kids when you're disabled is challenging in any scenario. Plenty of people manage this OK. It's not ideal but its doable.

But I don't think anyone should ever plan to have children with the intention of relying on someone else's money for the duration of the time they are rearing children. Its asking for trouble.

@DdraigGoch

Do you know what? After browsing the AIBU and Xmas boards I'm losing what's left of my fragile optimism

I don't really do NAMALT and totally accept that we live in a patriarchy skewed to benefit men at the expense of women

But.... things are changing slowly. It's like rolling a massive boulder to the top of a hill, but we - as in women - are getting there, slowly yes, but (I hope and want to believe) we are on an upward trajectory to the top

My main point is that we - as in women - are doing this; not men; us

It's true, most women's standards including mine are so low an ant couldn't limbo underneath.

Thing is, a lot of women want to be in a relationship and have kids, and I don't think that is just brainwashing by society, it's what they genuinely want. The problem is there aren't enough good men or maybe good people to go around. And to some extent it's luck if you ever meet one that is interested in you.

Its easy for you to say, cosy in your great relationship with lovely dc, well I wouldn't have accepted anything less, I'd have been single and childless forever. And maybe you would have, but we'll never know. It's a lot easier to look back and say that when it's all worked out. Much much harder to do when you are in your 20s and 30s, and strongly feeling that need to couple up.

I think too there is a certain type of man/woman who isn’t happy unless they’ve got a bit of an ‘Eastenders’ type relationship— I had a friend like this , if life was just coasting along , she would actually create drama/issues as I think she actually found it dull without them and sort out partners where there would be a good bit of volatility. I think money is often underplayed on here, some people rush into unsuitable relationships because they ‘can’t manage ‘ with only 1 income and basically want ‘someone’ to share the financial load and lots of women in reasonably good financial situations are often reluctant for it all to be 100% on them, maybe have to rent, maybe work full time if they don’t already, maybe have a big drop in lifestyle—

@TreeSmuggler

My relationship isn’t perfect or ‘cosy’ and whilst my DS are lovely indeed, both have Autism and life is much harder day to day because of that.

My DH is an equal partner and if he wasn’t, it was be very hard indeed.

We don’t know what’s in store for us which is why the choices we make are important.

A lady on a thread earlier this week spoke about the fact she was having a baby with a man who was abundantly clear he wouldn’t support her financially after the child was born. She earned well, he was the ‘best so far’ so she didn’t see a problem.

But star if she became ill? Her child was ill? Disabled?

That choice which seemed palatable when the future looks rosy and certain is quite different with chronic illness and children with additional needs.

My husband would give me his last penny and I would give him mine.

I think too many women have low self-esteem and are conditioned by society to see being in a relationship as something to aspire to at all cost. So even if the relationship is crap, they think it is better than being single.

Women tend to also take all the burden of making relationships work and compromise while men just carry on with being selfish, immature toddlers.

Of course not all men are like that but reading posts on this site, there is an endless supply of decent women putting up with poor treatment from guys.

I think things like online dating and porn have made things worse for women as well.