to ask if you think a lot of women have really low standards?

[Merryoldgoat]

Just that.

YABU - no they don’t
YANBU - yes they do

I just feel so depressed reading some of these threads.

I’m not talking about women in abusive relationships who are struggling to escape; I mean women who are just putting up with shit for reasons that are beyond comprehension.

Women don't have low standards. Women don't want to be alone, totally understandable normal human reaction to being alive to want to have somebody to share it with.

A lot of men have low standards of themselves. So women have the choice to be alone or be with crappy men. Women's standards are not the problem. Their need for love and companionship is not the problem. Men's low standards of themselves is the problem.

Men's low standards of themselves is the problem.

Surely this applies to both men and women?

@C8H10N4O2

I said VERY clearly I didn’t mean the men who hide their true character early on.

I’m no superwoman and my many threads and posts will show you thus.

I wasn’t lucky. I was sensible. I enjoyed my youth, fucked lots of blokes, went on dates but after a few very unsatisfactory short relationships I realised I had to make my happiness and that would only include a really decent man or I’d rather be alone.

I would also say that in my friendship group all of the men are like my DH. They’re not hen’s teeth - we are an entirely unremarkable group of people.

Should we just accept society is as it is? We have to be the change we want to see (said someone wiser than me).

I have two boys. I’ll be teaching them how to be fully functional respectful humans but they also have their dad showing them every day what being a good man looks like.

Totally agree with this. See also "fight for this love" and "you have to work at your marriage". Bleurgh

Yup. If a relationship is hard work it’s the wrong one.

@Tinylittlecabbages

You would rather a toxic and unpleasant relationship than being alone?

That’s a massive problem as far as I’m concerned.

I wasn’t lucky. I was sensible

Its disengenuous to claim all the credit for being "sensible" - nobody gets through life without a bit of luck and the people and society around us.

Should we just accept society is as it is? We have to be the change we want to see (said someone wiser than me)

No of course not. But if you cannot change without victim blaming you are part of the problem. Your thread wasn't "what can we do to address and support women in the face of men's behaviour" it was "why do women have such low standards" placing all the focus for change on the victims of men's behaviour.

But we have to kick back against this, not simply roll over and accept that this is how it has to be

Agree completely. But you do that by focusing on the problem behaviours, not telling the victims they are doing womaning wrong.

MN has been a massive eye opener for me on this issue. I am consistently amazed by how many women are prepared to tolerate useless lazy selfish unfaithful men, and to become financially dependent on horrible abusive controlling men. Where is their self-respect? Where are their boundaries?

Although I am childfree by choice myself, I understand that for biological reasons which may not be entirely rational, many women are desperate to settle down, get married and have a family within a relatively tight timescale. I also get that these objectives may conflict with maintaining their financial independence, but are babies really worth putting up with being treated so badly?

@Merryoldgoat

No I am alone. But I can see why people would make the other choice because loneliness is awful. And I don't blame women for men's inadequacies. I blame men.

I don't think women need to change their standards, I think men need to sort their fucking act out!

I think very few relationships or partners start out shit though. Often it's a gradual decline that erodes women's self confidence and judgement over time, especially when children are involved and there is a lack of financial independence.

@Tinylittlecabbages

I don't think women need to change their standards, I think men need to sort their fucking act out!

But those things are not mutually exclusive.

I’m not interested in changing a shit man - their shit behaviour is what leads me to not wanting to be with them.

Yes and men do it too. It is just a human thing. Women want men and men want women (well most of the time) and 50% or both are below average. I know men who have terrible partners many more than women so your original assertion isn't true.

Let’s be honest about the circumstances. Women are normally the main carer for children.
If you have a child and split with a partner and have the kids, high chance you are struck into poverty, which seems a dim position to be in so women stay.

If your rich and have a good career so poverty is not a problem, it takes on average two incomes now a days to have a mortgage and raise kids as prices are going through the roof, so even a well of women would feel a pinch.

The option of being in poverty or being not as well of is the problem when splitting up. If it was fairer, men wouldn’t be so quick to treat their wives like shit.

Basically having children and being a women puts you in a rather vulnerable situation

YANBU.

@C8H10N4O2

Absolutely luck has played a part in my life in various points but I actively made a decision about choosing a partner who was a good person and would not have carried on if he wasn’t.

I don't think its incomprehensible why women stay. Boiled frog syndrome, financial dependency, practical need if they have no other support and young or disabled children. I could go on.

If I were writing a relationship curriculum at its core it would teach children the vital importance of maintaining your independence in a relationship, in every way. You need to be able to walk whenever you need to.

I agree, @Merryoldgoat.

I wasn’t lucky, either. I was never remotely interested in trying to change some dickhead bloke. His inadequacies as a person and a potential partner are his problem, not mine. I was always going to find a decent bloke who was worthy of me or stay single.

Your not independent when you have children though, because those children are dependant on you as a mother. The father doesn’t seem to take his share of the responsibility unless the child LIVES at his for half the time.

@NoNameHere12

But I’m not talking about that - I’m talking about those early days where the massive carnival of red flags to a shitty character are completely ignored.

I’ve says very clearly I’m not talking about men who actively hide who they are until they’ve trapped you. They’re abusers - that’s entirely different.

I’m talking about all the low level twattery from day one that you’d be insane to ignore but lots of women do.

While many women do lower their standards in relationships and marriage, for whatever reason, can we not flip this on its head? ---》

AIBU as a society we should be holding men accountable for having poor standards of behaviour?

This reminds me of an interview I heard recently where someone said 'You can see the patriarchy in action when a woman with 'daddy issues' is a comedy trope, but a dad who leaves his kids as soon as his relationship is over is barely worth mentioning.

We live in a country where fathers supporting their offspring is effectively optional and those that do are practically lauded as heroes. Women are forced to hand their children https to men with documented evidence of abuse because the courts often prioritise the men when it comes to acrimonious divorces. Child support levels and enforcement are laughably minimal and women are treated like beggars for trying to get their exes to contribute to their children's upkeep.

Leaving a relationship because you aren't happy with a man who doesn't pull his weight is a physical, emotional and practical luxury many can't afford.

[quote Merryoldgoat]@C8H10N4O2

Absolutely luck has played a part in my life in various points but I actively made a decision about choosing a partner who was a good person and would not have carried on if he wasn’t.[/quote]
You clearly knew what constituted a good relationship though, maybe your parents had a good relationship, maybe they had a good relationship with you.

Lots of people don't have that. So they just don't realise their relationship is bad, or at least not till it is too late.

Plus the ' what are men like!' cultural narrative means that even when they complain to friends about partners, their friends may not be picking up on how bad things are either, but just eye-rolling and telling their own tales of their partner's faults, which then normalises poor behaviour, making it harder to spot that this guy is not a keeper.

@NoNameHere12

Your not independent when you have children though, because those children are dependant on you as a mother. The father doesn’t seem to take his share of the responsibility unless the child LIVES at his for half the time.

I would say, if you can't raise children by yourself, don't have them. I think its that important.