to ask if you think a lot of women have really low standards?

[Merryoldgoat]

Just that.

YABU - no they don’t
YANBU - yes they do

I just feel so depressed reading some of these threads.

I’m not talking about women in abusive relationships who are struggling to escape; I mean women who are just putting up with shit for reasons that are beyond comprehension.

I think there’s been a massive societal shift in the past 80 years or so which we are still adjusting to.

The traditional mum at home with kids,dad out at work model is disappearing. But whereas women have taken on a lot more responsibility men have not. And in the eyes of society are not expected to.

And quite frankly they don’t want to But marketing still sells the vision of a successful life as being one where you have a partner and children (for women anyway).

I think things are changing and we as women need to support younger women in valuing themselves more and in not accepting crap men.

And the biological urge to have children still plays a role.

To the various PP who have suggested I’m smug, or enjoy belittling women in unfavourable positions etc - that’s not what I’m talking about.

I was very clear I didn’t mean anyone in abusive relationships and of course no one is abused from day 1.

But there are threads on here every day where a woman has been with someone for 5 minutes who is clearly treating her with indifference at best and just puts up with it.

Or the women who post about the men useless with the kids when it turns out they’ve been useless from day 1.

My DH is far from perfect but he is a good and decent person from start to finish and he’s been like that every day I’ve known him.

Physically not being able to manage is very different to not wanting to be alone and putting up with shite isn’t it?

@TangoWhiskyAlphaTango
I am also not able to manage alone due to poor health and disability. No I don’t think it is different.

@User8756777732

Ah yes, the ‘little job’. That’s how my grandmother used to refer to my job. I’m an accountant. She couldn’t fathom my earning power was the same as my DH (if not more).

So who raises these women with low expectations and men with poor behaviour?

Is it Philip Larkin who wrote about your parents fucking you up.

Yep. Particularly on MN. I find it staggering. Why? Such low self esteem? Why did you marry, why were you even attracted to such a man-child? I just don't get it.

@CheeseMmmm

The more illuminating question on this surely is-

Why do so many men think shoddy behaviour to partner is ok?

I agree 100%. In my view, it's less that a lot of women have really low standards than that a lot of men have really low expectations of themselves. Rather than asking women why they put up with it, let's ask those men why their expectations of themselves as partners and fathers are in the sink.

Remember that often the inadequacies and inequalities in the relationship only really become apparent during pregnancy/after children. Women then have an unpalatable choice - split up the family and go it alone (which is tough and outcomes for children from single parent families aren't always good due to stress/lack of resources) or put up with a 'good enough' dad to avoid this.

@mumda

I grew up in a house with an abusive relationship.

I was determined that my life would be nothing like my mother’s.

Yes, poor relationships are modelled at home and education surrounding healthy ones is poor but these cycles can be broken, you can say ‘I want better’ and do everything you can to achieve it.

@SmellyOldPartridgeinaPearTree

Maybe men should have higher standards for their own behaviour. It's not women's fault that men treat them like shit. They don't start off that way. Why can't men just hold themselves to a high standard and not be selfish pricks.

Not all men are like that.

I wonder if it's a case of more women than men seemingly needing 'the man' to define their worth in society?
I read the relationships boards particularly around OLD and so many sound so utterly desperate for a partner.
I mean it's nice and all that but it's not life defining surely?
I rarely hear any of my male friends desperately bleating on about needing to find a woman.
So OP I do think many women have low standards because they are conditioned into believing that they are only worth something if they have the man, any old bloke

[quote Merryoldgoat]@mumda

I grew up in a house with an abusive relationship.

I was determined that my life would be nothing like my mother’s.

Yes, poor relationships are modelled at home and education surrounding healthy ones is poor but these cycles can be broken, you can say ‘I want better’ and do everything you can to achieve it.[/quote]
It was the same with me OP. My parents had awful marriage, there was never a day of joy in my home.
When I started dating, my mother was always angry when I dumped somebody. In her words, if somebody wants to be with me that is enough. She complained I had high standards and I’ll end up old maid.

I was never afraid of loneliness. I worked and had enough for day to day life and I was very happy with that. After my awful childhood, I wasn’t ready to trade peace I got when I started my Independent life for anybody who is short of perfect. So I lived alone from 18 till I was 32. When I met my husband, I knew that was what I wanted.

But then I do not believe in fairytales. My marriage is good now, but I have no idea what waits me around the corner.

Interesting thread and no straight answer.
The poster who spoke about a falling birth rate in the Asian country she lives in is spot on. Women are seeing that it’s not worth them having a child they would rather stay child free. Therefore why shack up with a man?
What is the benefit?
I think having a child is the key factor. 2 of my friends are child free through choice. They both have amazing partners who pull their weight and are not in any way lazy nor do they take their partners for granted. Both are in very long term relationships. Throw children into the mix and the power balance often changes. Lots of men continue to do what they used to do, hobbies which take up a full day at the weekend plus several nights throughout the week. The woman is then left doing the vast majority of the childcare. It’s the same at Christmas. Women being the ones left to do everything whilst their partner can’t even be bothered to buy them a decent present, or clean the kitchen.
Women still get slated for:

1. being single
2. being child free
3. putting their career above everything else
4. being divorced
5. walking away from family life.

I think it's partly driven by the fact that society traps women into relationships.

Just to take an example of a friend of mine. She bought a house with her partner using the proceeds of her own house sale (he had bugger all money to put in as he was recently divorced). They then had a baby and gave the child the bloke's surname. That meant she got married as she wanted the same surname. She's now back at work after maternity leave and realising what a lazy arse of a husband/dad he is. He puts in the bare minimum effort with their son and expects her to work full time and be housemaid.

But what does she do now? If she got divorced she'd lose the house she's worked so hard for, she'd be a single mum and she'd have to either keep the bastard's surname or have a different one from her son. And what about him? He'd walk away as a Disney dad who looks after his son every other weekend and would be quids in with half a lovely house.

The power imbalance here is huge. He can get away with being an entitled, lazy arse because he knows she won't leave.

There's loads of different issues and my opinion changes with each one.

But @Merryoldgoat the fact that yiu have a good relationship actually is, in part, luck.

Many kids grow up and enter abusive relationships after see their parents in one. There's no difference between those people and you and no one knows why, some people react one way and not another.

My dad doesn't drink, due to being raised by an alcoholic. He won be that person. But his older brother, who still didn't eat to be that person also ended up an alcoholic. No idea why one did and one didn't.

But also I married a good man. 2 kids. Together 12 and married 10. Very good dad who took on at least half of the responsibility.

Then he had some sort of mental health crisis. It was very slow. Crept up on us.

Another 7 years later, we arent together. He became so paranoid ne and the kids left the property at night. He stalked me. Physically, online and got access to my phone etc. Would search my car and messages and physically sit outside my work to see if I left.

Now he barely sees his kids. The older one (18) doesn't have anything g to do with him. He is anti vax, anti mask, covid denier who goes from girlfriend to girlfriend. Usually telling them how badly I want him back, tol they become paranoid messes and take it out on me.

He hasn't even bothered to contact the kids despite it being Christmas AND my mum (the kids Nana) dying a few weeks ago.

I don't put up with shit. I left fairly quickly. But I did spend time trying to get him because before this he was a good man. Probably stated longer than I should.

Your relationship works. But it's luck taht something hasn't happened that's meant it's no longer safe.

People who have known him for years can't believe how much he has changed. His father won't speak to him. His mother encourage his paranoia and they are splitting up.

So yes, luck does pay a part in your relationship. You have no idea what's round the corner. What might change you or your husband.

Unless you have a way of predicted that mental health problems will manifest 10-12 years before they actually do....you could have just as easily found yourself in my situation.

I don’t think it’s as simple as that. I’d say 90 percent of the threads I read on here the woman has got herself into a position she’s financially reliant on the man, so she stays for the “lifestyle” rather than be alone and possibly on benefits etc.

A lot do though see the red flags quickly but stay because they would rather be in a relationship than single.

Being on here is a real eye opener sadly, disinterested, lazy, disrespectful partners, and usually buried in the text is,,but I’ve no money,

I see so many threads on here about shit men, bad relationships and disrespect. I write ltb almost every day. It is a skewed sample as there aren’t many my dh is amazing threads; sometimes someone starts one but there are a lot of examples of toxic relationships.

There’s lots of reasons to stay often involving kids or finances or deciding it’s not that bad. Also the false arguments about it being good 90% of the time when it should be 100%; ok nobody’s perfect but there should never be any serious disrespect, abuse or violence.

I also notice the number of threads starting with what a great dad the dh is or how he’s lovely then going on to describe some definitely not lovely behaviour

My DH is the one with low standards with going for me. I think some posts on here will potentially be biased (against men) as mainly female posters , so may be not fairest picture painted .

I was married for twenty years. He was a good bloke until he wasn't.
So when he started having sex with someone else I finished it immediately and had nothing but support from family and friends. My mother's standards are high and her and my DF's now 60 year old marriage is built on mutual respect so that was my upbringing and the blueprint of what I would accept.
My friends also only had respectful relationships and not one would have put up with crap behaviour.
So when I found myself alone with two small children in a new city ( one child needing lots of trips and operations in hospital) with a new and large mortgage and a job miles away I knew I had to get on with making it work and not become fixated about finding a man to save me.
And I did it eventually and bought ex out, all alone.
I'm not writing this to say look at how wonderful I am, I'm posting because I think it very much depends on the messages we are given in childhood and from our circle of friends. The message I was given is that a relationship can be wonderful, however rely on yourself first, never on another person. Stay with that person for only the right reasons and while you are enjoying each other. And make sure you always have a way to financially support yourself so that you are only with your partner for love/ companionship/ having a child with etc. not so that you can eat.

Honestly, I think a lot of women have low expectations from life. And a lot of men expect that of women too. And that cascades and ripples through society and becomes the norm.

I agree, and I firmly believe that a lot of the time women are given those expectations from a young age. My mother still seems baffled why I need/want a career when I could just have got married, settled down, had children and been looked after, instead of working my way up to a place where I have a good job, good income, good pension and I live independently.

On top of societal norms and expectations, throw in self esteem issues and fractured/abusive home lives which make people crave a life they didn’t have (I have a friend who had horrifically abusive parents and she told me once “All I want is someone to love me” but has almost always had equally horrifically abusive partners, including one who beat and raped her) and yes, I can absolutely see why some women’s standards are lower than a snake’s belly button.

I think that a lot of parents have very low standards for boys and this inevitably continues to adulthood.
Boys are classed as naughty or lazy and left to gaming and watching tv. Weed smoking is accepted too. Girls seem to have higher expectations of them.
I think boys just develop differently and parents and teachers need to adapt to this.

There's a lot of societal, religious, family pressure on women to stay in relationships.
Statistically women are more likely to stay in bad relationships and I think added to the societal pressure, there is fear of reprisals both emotional and physical. Look at all the steps women take to stay safe every day that men don't even consider.
What I find sad is that either there are a lot of MRAs on here atm or there is a new generation of women who are fully subscribed to 'suck it up buttercup ' . MN used to be fab for having a core of women who didn't accept bullshit. Post a thread now where a man is obviously being UR and abusive and within the first page you'll have posts 'diagnosing' him as depressed/autistic/ so he doesn't have to take responsibility for his actions but at the same time saying it's the woman's responsibility to stand by him/arrange support/try to change him. And, of course, that favourite old chestnut how if the roles were reversed the advice would be different- as though that's sexist rather than sensible considering the power imbalance in society.

I think we as a society have such low expectations for men and boys. Over the past 40 years, girls and women have been exhorted to work hard, have a career, better yourself (and yes, bag a man and have perfect children) in a way that boys simply aren’t.

Of the 7 places at my Oxbridge college available for medicine this year, we gave 6 to girls. They were so far ahead of the boys in pretty much every respect - academics, drive, ambition, ability to hold intelligent conversation. One memorable boy only engaged with my male colleague during the interview.

And yet when we get to clinical fellows/lecturers, the number drops off a cliff, because a significant number shack up with men who can’t/won’t pull their weight with raising a family.

Societal expectations - single mums are seen as faulty somehow.

Green. I have £110/week for EVERYTHING after rent.

I do EVERYTHING.

My friends who are unhappy have household incomes £100k+ (not in south east) - want for nothing material and have someone else to “be in the house” whilst they get 20 minutes with the dog.

It’d be very tempting to put up with some twattery to have all my bills paid and have someone pick up the load even once in a while.

I met a lovely couple from South Africa that were in their 70s and still adored each other, she told me that he "courted" her for a year before she even allowed him to kiss her, when they talked about there future she agreed to marry him but only on the condition he had saved enough for a deposit for a home in a good area and that family life would always be 50-50, she was not going to be his Mother. He saved for the house and she saved for the contents. They married 3 years later. I met them as they toured Europe for their Golden wedding anniversary. Maybe we should be a bit more like them and take our time and lay down conditions before we commit.

Every woman who ever had a relationship with Boris Johnson comes to mind as someone with low standards or low self-esteem.