to ask if you think a lot of women have really low standards?

[Merryoldgoat]

Just that.

YABU - no they don’t
YANBU - yes they do

I just feel so depressed reading some of these threads.

I’m not talking about women in abusive relationships who are struggling to escape; I mean women who are just putting up with shit for reasons that are beyond comprehension.

And yet when we get to clinical fellows/lecturers, the number drops off a cliff, because a significant number shack up with men who can’t/won’t pull their weight with raising a family.

Yep the whole thing is so tediously predictable isn't it. The women will work their arses off throughout their 20s as a medic. Then get married, get pregnant and go on mat leave. Then they'll try to go back to work and find it impossible to juggle being the main caregiver and doing a really demanding job. Meanwhile husband carries on as normal. Woman eventually decides to give up on really demanding career aspirations and do something more flexible/part time. Husband ends up being the main breadwinner, woman's career gets sidelined. Rinse, repeat.

I agree with you OP.

a) Too many women still financially depend on men (far too many women give up work too easily). Changing but not fast enough.
b) A lot of women don't think they are "whole" unless they are in a relationship. There was an absolutely desperate thread yesterday with lots of people saying they had to be in a (bad) relationship because they didn't want to be alone in the house at night. Just mind-bogglingly depressing. That was a real eye-opener.

I think cultural more than religious expectations also plays abig part in how much women will put up with.
Divorce in some cultures is always seen as the woman's fault and is pretty much a taboo subject.
Plus problems creep in to a marriage and by the time your eyes are opened to how bad things have become, your lives are so entrenched in to each other's that leaving feels just impossible.

@sheroku

And yet when we get to clinical fellows/lecturers, the number drops off a cliff, because a significant number shack up with men who can’t/won’t pull their weight with raising a family.

Yep the whole thing is so tediously predictable isn't it. The women will work their arses off throughout their 20s as a medic. Then get married, get pregnant and go on mat leave. Then they'll try to go back to work and find it impossible to juggle being the main caregiver and doing a really demanding job. Meanwhile husband carries on as normal. Woman eventually decides to give up on really demanding career aspirations and do something more flexible/part time. Husband ends up being the main breadwinner, woman's career gets sidelined. Rinse, repeat.

But that's down to their relationship. Men and women work their arses off in their 20's as a medic and in their late teens - i know as my son is going through that process now.

Most children are born within a relationship - its up to that relationship to decide who gets what level of maternity/paternity leave. It can be split 50/50 - allowing the woman to go back to work straight after and continue he career. But this is a decision to be made by the man & woman in the relationship and doesn't have to mean that the woman has to give up on anything.

Most children are born within a relationship - its up to that relationship to decide who gets what level of maternity/paternity leave. It can be split 50/50 - allowing the woman to go back to work straight after and continue he career. But this is a decision to be made by the man & woman in the relationship and doesn't have to mean that the woman has to give up on anything.

The fiction that it's up to the individual couple how they split their responsibilities conveniently ignores the societal backdrop against which these decisions are made. Men and women don't make these decisions within a vacuum. Women often have to fight tooth and nail to achieve anything resembling equality within their relationships.

Is this some kind of "blame the victim" thread?
Like a sexist rebranding of "poor people have no taste"?

Maybe, just maybe, some people have very limited life opportunities, and are just stuck trying to make lemonade out of shitty lemons?

It's not like these life-decisions happen out of a vacuum either. Typically all their social circles will be promoting such shitty standards, and telling them off if they dare thinking for themselves and question the status quo. In some extreme cases, even kill them.

But no, these women just have poor personal standards. No misogyny here, move along.

@Goldbar

Most children are born within a relationship - its up to that relationship to decide who gets what level of maternity/paternity leave. It can be split 50/50 - allowing the woman to go back to work straight after and continue he career. But this is a decision to be made by the man & woman in the relationship and doesn't have to mean that the woman has to give up on anything.

The fiction that it's up to the individual couple how they split their responsibilities conveniently ignores the societal backdrop against which these decisions are made. Men and women don't make these decisions within a vacuum. Women often have to fight tooth and nail to achieve anything resembling equality within their relationships.

This.

As a small example, DD's school has never ever rang OH. If they can't get in touch with me they leave me voice mails OR ring the office at my work place so they can get a hold of me. They never even try to get in touch with him.

Women often have to fight tooth and nail to achieve anything resembling equality within their relationships

I concur.
It goes beyond the couple, too. When kids got ill, DH would drag his feet to stay home to look after them. I put my foot down. He asked his employer to take leave. First reaction: "can't your wife look after them?". Every single bloody time
(that employer is now an ex-employer, thanks fuck for that. But we're lucky we can afford to be picky)

I think a lot of women do, and if you're part of a group of women, all of whom put up with various levels of shit, it's easy to have your perception of what is shit/your tolerance of shit skewed.

I also think there's a lot of really shit behaviour about and if you haven't experienced what it's like to be in a relationship that's not full of bad behaviour then sometimes the run of the mill bad behaviour gets missed or overlooked/treated as par for the course. I certainly put up with all kinds of crap in past relationships before I met my DH. Now I'm much more secure and confident in myself, and have experienced what it's like to be in a genuinely respectful relationship, I wouldn't, but I didn't realise how bad my previous relationships were until I'd been in a good relationship with a man who genuinely cares about me.

This is the first period of time I've been single. I have been In a relationship since I was 16 and I am not 33. I put up with 3 men who had zero respect for me initially I put up with it due to the domestic violence I experienced as a child and the 2 subsequent relationships were down to low self-esteem and a fear of being on my own.

I can tell you I love been on my own, I also love being a single parent me and my DDs are so much happier than we ever have been.

Being on your own is not as scary as you think it is. I am also scared I will be alone forever as I now know my worth and I have doubts that any man would treat me how I deserve.

@RobotValkyrie

Women often have to fight tooth and nail to achieve anything resembling equality within their relationships

I concur.
It goes beyond the couple, too. When kids got ill, DH would drag his feet to stay home to look after them. I put my foot down. He asked his employer to take leave. First reaction: "can't your wife look after them?". Every single bloody time
(that employer is now an ex-employer, thanks fuck for that. But we're lucky we can afford to be picky)

This is an interesting example.

I don't think the following can be said loudly enough: IT IS NOT EQUALITY IF YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FOR IT.

Yes, women shouldn't put up with it and men should do their share. Yes, some men can be bullied into it if women try hard enough.

But what is equality isn't women insisting that men share the cooking, share sick days, do night feeds and play with the kids at the weekend. That's just an extra chore for women and they get accused of 'nagging' for their trouble. Often it is less trouble to do it yourself.

It is men, unprompted, saying, 'it's my turn' when it's time to cook dinner or a child is off sick from nursery or vomit-covered sheets need to be changed. It is women coming down from having a long lie at the weekend to find their partners doing the hoovering or playing with the kids, because they did the same for their partner the weekend before. It is having an expectation that both responsibilities and free time will be shared since there is no 'default' person who is always in charge of everything unless someone kindly agrees to help them.

Wrong question OP. The actual question is why, in 2021 is a first world and supposedly advanced society still so patriarchal and misogynistic? Why are men still not pulling their weight, behaving better in relationships, doing more parenting of their own children etc etc?

To blame the behaviour of men on women for "putting up with it" its misogynistic victim blaming.

I certainly did have when I got together with/ married exh! Hopefully improved now but not been near men recently…

Ironically, I think women cope far better being on their own than men do. So I don't understand why so many of them worry about it

You only have to read the vitriol towards single parents on these forums to work that one out. I’ve been single for many years now and the number of people who say just awful things ‘innocently’ is shocking. I have come to the conclusion that women managing a,one are somehow a terrible terrible threat to the patriarchy,

It’s so easy to poor scorn on other women who are struggling when you find yourself in a position where you are cherished and supported- and consequently feel like you are strong and capable of anything. Have a little empathy- there but for the grace of god go you. It’s shockingly easy for a human being to manipulate and undermine another human in subtle ways until they no longer believe in themselves. Ask ‘why do people bully, undermine and abuse’ not ‘why do people put up with it’.

@Blah1881

It’s so easy to poor scorn on other women who are struggling when you find yourself in a position where you are cherished and supported- and consequently feel like you are strong and capable of anything. Have a little empathy- there but for the grace of god go you. It’s shockingly easy for a human being to manipulate and undermine another human in subtle ways until they no longer believe in themselves. Ask ‘why do people bully, undermine and abuse’ not ‘why do people put up with it’.

👏👏👏

@RobotValkyrie

Is this some kind of "blame the victim" thread? Like a sexist rebranding of "poor people have no taste"?

Maybe, just maybe, some people have very limited life opportunities, and are just stuck trying to make lemonade out of shitty lemons?

It's not like these life-decisions happen out of a vacuum either. Typically all their social circles will be promoting such shitty standards, and telling them off if they dare thinking for themselves and question the status quo. In some extreme cases, even kill them.

But no, these women just have poor personal standards. No misogyny here, move along.

@RobotValkyrie

Is this some kind of "blame the victim" thread?
Like a sexist rebranding of "poor people have no taste"?

I know what you mean. There is sometimes a tendency among those of us who have got away to look down on other women who have become trapped in bad marriages and sometimes it verges on smugness. If it verges into victim-blaming and cruelty its always the wrong approach.

On the other hand, though, you do have to fly the flag a bit to change standards. There's still a staggering amount of internalised misogyny and internalised weakness on the part of a lot of women and it needs to be challenged in order for things to change.

This thread yesterday about people being afraid to be single is a good case in point. I found it utterly astonishing, given what we now know about how prevalent domestic violence is, that a number of people popped up on that thread to say they preferred to be in a relationship than on their own because they felt safer at night. It would be funny if it wasn't so awful to think that a lot of people are this misguided.

No-one should be blamed for being the victim of an abusive or neglectful man and a lot of women have been conditioned into thinking this is normal. But something has really gone badly wrong when so many women would prefer to be in a bad relationship than no relationship at all and have so little sense of agency in their own lives.

It's no good enough just to shrug and say it's not their fault. We really really need to change the way women see themselves in order to create a fairer and safer society. It bears repeating and repeating until it sinks in.

@C8H10N4O2

Wrong question OP. The actual question is why, in 2021 is a first world and supposedly advanced society still so patriarchal and misogynistic? Why are men still not pulling their weight, behaving better in relationships, doing more parenting of their own children etc etc?

To blame the behaviour of men on women for "putting up with it" its misogynistic victim blaming.

Hear hear to that!

I’m honestly not sure my base opinion is victim blaming.

I’ve said twice I don’t mean women in abusive relationships.

It’s those women who early on don’t put up with the shit and ignore the signs and don’t learn.

My mum was a beaten down drudge by her appalling partner. She was trapped with him by circumstances - some avoidable and some down to bad decisions, but not her FAULT.

I decided from very young that wasn’t a life I wanted.

So when I met DH I took note of little things.

He lived with his parents but paid rent
He often had to rush home to cook family dinner
He would spend a day doing his laundry and ironing
He would ask advice and listen
At family parties he spent time talking to his family and playing with the kids
If someone we knew seemed low he’d text or call to see if they were ok
He bought thoughtful presents for everyone
He was generous with time and money

These were all characteristics that were observable in the first few months of our relationship.

I couldn’t know everything but the core of him was on display and I think many women actively ignore the true character of the men they start going out with and wonder why it ends up going to shit.

It’s like bingo:

‘He’s never been good with money’
‘He had a gambling problem when we met’
‘He hates his family but they seem really nice’
‘He stays 5 nights a week but hasn’t bought any groceries’

Etc etc.

This is early days stuff. I’m not talking about the fuckers who hide who they are so well at the start.

I agree with other posters about the fear of being alone and low self esteem often leads to a massive compromise on standards. I put up with all manner of shite and abusive behaviour in some of my early relationships because of this. There was a mix of not having the maturity or confidence to deal with said challenging behaviour, or even worse, believing it was my fault that the other person was acting the twat. Thankfully, after picking up the courage to leave an emotionally, financially and ultimately physically abusive relationship I spent a number of years alone just working on myself, defining my own personal boundaries and putting in place a fairly zero tolerance attitude to potential partners displaying fuckwit attitudes and behaviours. I had the confidence to be content and single without needing validation by being in a relationship. I walked away from a few early relationships when I saw certain red flag behaviours present themselves. I did end up meeting someone awesome who was on the same page as me with pretty much everything.

Id also add that we are sold the "you must comprimise to make a relationship work" line.

Poor models of relationships, no meaningful discussion of what a good relationship is, general acceptance of poor behaviour from men and victim blaming among your immediate network, poor conflict management skills, not being able to assert boundaries because no ones ever taught you how ...

I’m honestly not sure my base opinion is victim blaming

I’ve said twice I don’t mean women in abusive relationships

Most relationships don't start out that way - quite the opposite. Its usually a gradual, creeping process with the woman feeling unable to leave for a whole host of reasons even when the coercion is evident.

You are completing ignoring the weight of societal expectations on women in patriarchal societies. So you are superwoman who would never be in that situation - well done, take a housepoint. Or possibly acknowledge that you have had a bit of luck along the way, like most of us in long term relationships.

@C8H10N4O2

You are completing ignoring the weight of societal expectations on women in patriarchal societies. So you are superwoman who would never be in that situation - well done, take a housepoint. Or possibly acknowledge that you have had a bit of luck along the way, like most of us in long term relationships.

This may be true but that doesn't mean its OK to just shrug and say "it was ever thus". Yes, the odds are stacked against us, its harder for us than it is for them and we're endlessly barraged with societal expectations that dictate we have no value outside of our relationships with men.

But we have to kick back against this, not simply roll over and accept that this is how it has to be.

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale

Id also add that we are sold the "you must comprimise to make a relationship work" line.

Totally agree with this. See also "fight for this love" and "you have to work at your marriage". Bleurgh.

IME some really nice women attract awful men. So women who are caring and empathetic can attract quite needy men who can turn abusive. Equally I find some men who are caring and empathetic attract women who will abuse these good qualities. I am not sure it is a gender thing. My advice to young women is a) be choosy, b) stay single unless you are sure this is what you want c) look for someone who is not go to drain all of the joy out of life.