to ask if you think a lot of women have really low standards?

[Merryoldgoat]

Just that.

YABU - no they don’t
YANBU - yes they do

I just feel so depressed reading some of these threads.

I’m not talking about women in abusive relationships who are struggling to escape; I mean women who are just putting up with shit for reasons that are beyond comprehension.

It’s amazing how fast a person can get used to living in a shit situation and just put up with it.

In my experience women put up with being miserable far more than men do. I don’t know whether it’s because society has conditioned us to or if it’s because our options can feel limited (earning less money, children etc).

[quote Merryoldgoat]@NoNameHere12

But I’m not talking about that - I’m talking about those early days where the massive carnival of red flags to a shitty character are completely ignored.

I’ve says very clearly I’m not talking about men who actively hide who they are until they’ve trapped you. They’re abusers - that’s entirely different.

I’m talking about all the low level twattery from day one that you’d be insane to ignore but lots of women do.[/quote]
What do you propose, OP, as a solution to getting more women to take heed of early red flags?

@DysmalRadius

This reminds me of an interview I heard recently where someone said 'You can see the patriarchy in action when a woman with 'daddy issues' is a comedy trope, but a dad who leaves his kids as soon as his relationship is over is barely worth mentioning.

We live in a country where fathers supporting their offspring is effectively optional and those that do are practically lauded as heroes. Women are forced to hand their children https to men with documented evidence of abuse because the courts often prioritise the men when it comes to acrimonious divorces. Child support levels and enforcement are laughably minimal and women are treated like beggars for trying to get their exes to contribute to their children's upkeep.

Leaving a relationship because you aren't happy with a man who doesn't pull his weight is a physical, emotional and practical luxury many can't afford.

I do think this is true. There is too much condemnation of women for staying in poor relationships, but those women have two shit choices. It is their and their kids' lives and they will be carefully weighing up which of those two options are the least worse.

@TerraNovaTwo

Christ knows! There needs to be a wholesale change in how some men think it’s acceptable to behave but we also need to raise our expectations for our relationships.

I can only take responsibility for myself and my children and I’ll do the utmost to ensure they are not the men acting like arseholes.

@Decemberfinances

I grew up having been abandoned by my father and raised by my mother in a shitty abusive relationship.

There was not a single healthy relationship modelled to me as I grew up.

Maybe I just have a low threshold for wankery.

We need to let our daughters know that being single is infinitely better than being shackled to a disappointing man
We need to believe that and live it as reality ourselves before we can teach it to anyone.

The world has low expectations of men so it’s not surprising. Men are “amazing dads” when they take their kids to the park or make their pack lunches. They are rare as unicorns if they don’t watch hardcore porn. They are “stepping up” if they pay maintenance to feed their own kids. They are “pulling their weight at home” if they clean the bathroom once a week.
It becomes ingrained in boyhood, from school, but mainly from boys own male role models. My solution would be to send all 18 year old boys to boot camp for a year, where they learn to clean, cook, take care of animals and children and generally shape up. I dream of being able to send my own lazy teen boys..

OP, maybe the relationships were so bad that you were able to easily recognise it and avoid repeating that pattern, maybe you were born with a ' fuck you' personality.

You are you, living your life in your circumstances with your personality and resources.

You seem to be judging and condemning other women.

I can't see anything constructive coming out of that. In fact, it makes it harder for women to come forward for support.

Yes they do, I am often astounded at the amount of women on here who have a DP who doesn't work, I want to yell at them 'why are you wasting time with a man who doesn't work, they are as worthless as a piece of shit' (this is if they are able to, I understand some men may not be able to work) Also there are times when he has a job at the start of the relationship and somehow manages to lose it. Also amazed at the amount of people who have to live together within a year of meeting, why, then he turns out to be a twat. I refuse to live with a man until he proves himself to be a decent human.

Perhaps you don't understand because you're not in a situation where you need to.

it's very easy to sit in a happy relationship and say what you would do in other people's shoes but no one really knows for sure how they would act until they're actually living in the situation.

For me I'd flip it on it's head, why are some people so fucking awful to the people they're in a relationship with and put the blame at the feet of the dickheads, not the people who are staying in the relationships for a million different reasons.

@GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal

Yep. Constantly stunned by the crap so many women put up with. Just...why??!

The reasons are complex and varied but pretending not to understand doesn't help. We can all think of many reasons why.

I used to believe the - its better to be alone - and in some cases that is true.
But I am in my late fifties and I see a lot of single women dating men they wouldn't have looked at twice at one time, and I think it is mainly for companionship.
I have friends. But most people still want to spend a lot of time with their nuclear family. Life can be very lonely if you are single.

My solution would be to send all 18 year old boys to boot camp for a year, where they learn to clean, cook, take care of animals and children and generally shape up.

Nice

My solution would be to send all 18 year old boys to boot camp for a year, where they learn to clean, cook, take care of animals and children and generally shape up

What? You mean learn all the things they should be taught by their parents? Bloody hell.

The idea that men are either decent blokes or obvious losers is flawed too. Many relationship inequalities simply don't rear their heads until you have children, at which point it's too late to do much about it. In a couple who both enjoy long lie ins, both work, contribute to and manage a two person household quite happily, how can one person possibly know that the other is going to fail to pull their weight when there is suddenly a shit load of responsibility to share out?

A man who says all the right things and has been a good partner, pulling their weight throughout a relationship often drifts into leaving things to their wife when she's on maternity leave and is 'at home anyway' and she's so tired and focused on the baby to notice until they have accidentally established a pattern whereby he's doing less and she's doing more and she feels guilty because she's 'only' bringing in maternity pay and he feels like she's at home anyway so should be able to do all the washing and so on and so on. It's not as cut and dried as you're making it OP and I can't work out whether you're being disingenuous or genuinely don't readjust how many shades of grey there are between wedded bliss and active abuse.

It’s not about sending boys to boot camp. Humans will always have shitty people amongst them, it’s about teaching women enough independence, both financial and emotional that they don’t get themselves into situations where they accept poor behavuour.

The fact is Britain is very adult-centric and patriarchal. Women, especially single mothers and spinsters, who refuse to lower their standards are still heavily stigmatised by society. Whereas male violence, child abandonment and sexism is excused, ignored and or the blame is deflected on to the woman.

My solution would be to send all 18 year old boys to boot camp for a year, where they learn to clean, cook, take care of animals and children and generally shape up

I don't know about sending boys to boot camp, but there's something to be said for making them do a short period of compulsory community service (maybe 3-6 months) in schools, care homes, hospices etc. Along the lines of Zivildienst in Germany.

For 2 reasons -

• As parents, we're not getting the message across to our boys that caring and domestic work is equally their responsibility as that of girls. Whether that's because we're not trying hard enough or because it's difficult to counteract the patriarchal and misogynistic culture they grow up in is unclear, but we're definitely not getting the message across strongly enough.
• We live in a patriarchy. Most things are run by men. Most politicians are men. Most well-paid jobs are done by men. However, relatively few men have direct experience of working in caring or educational environments. You care less about things you don't have direct experience of. If men were more involved in education, care and social services and understood the challenges faced by those working at ground level, they would be better funded even if it meant higher taxes. As it is, much of this is seen as 'women's work' and therefore less valued and poorly funded.

@Merryoldgoat

I don’t know a single man who puts up with a fraction of the shit a raft of women do.

I suspect they just don't complain as much. Mumsnet is not an indicator of life in general, most people posting are posting because they have issues in their relationship, people without these issues tend not to post.

I suspect that for some it's their choices that are poor. There are a lot of decent men around perhaps there are a lot of mumsnetters who choose partners with that are fun while dating but not when married.

I don't know about sending boys to boot camp, but there's something to be said for making them do a short period of compulsory community service (maybe 3-6 months) in schools, care homes, hospices etc.

On that basis maybe we should send young women to work on sewer systems, waste management and roadworks? Very few women have experience of working in these environments and a stint would help them understood the challenges faced by those working at ground level?

Thanks Goldbar, you get it. OBVS my comment was tongue in cheek, and yes as parents we need to teach boys those things, but actually fathers should be taking the lead with teaching boys and they are NOT in the main. I am one woman trying to teach young men how to be good and useful men against the full force of thousands of years of the message that the domestic labour is for women!!

Yeah Dillon because the fact more men work in waste management is the reason women have to put up with so much crap in relationships with men…

@DillonPanthersTexas

I don't know about sending boys to boot camp, but there's something to be said for making them do a short period of compulsory community service (maybe 3-6 months) in schools, care homes, hospices etc.

On that basis maybe we should send young women to work on sewer systems, waste management and roadworks? Very few women have experience of working in these environments and a stint would help them understood the challenges faced by those working at ground level?

Women don't run the country and make the funding decisions which affect all of our lives. Hence why it is work traditionally perceived as 'woman's work' which is underfunded.

^^Is this some kind of "blame the victim" thread?
Like a sexist rebranding of "poor people have no taste"?

Maybe, just maybe, some people have very limited life opportunities, and are just stuck trying to make lemonade out of shitty lemons?

It's not like these life-decisions happen out of a vacuum either. Typically all their social circles will be promoting such shitty standards, and telling them off if they dare thinking for themselves and question the status quo. In some extreme cases, even kill them.

But no, these women just have poor personal standards. No misogyny here, move along.^^

@RobotValkyrie
I agree with this. Just because some people are sure of themselves, not insecure enough to be taken in by some of the many reasons people end up in crappy relationships, etc they can't seem to fathom why everyone else isn't the same..

People are very complex, we can look down on others but if you were them, had the same life, same insecurities, natural disposition, genes etc, you would more than likely make the same decisions.

Also I would say that unless you're in an abusive relationship the grass isn't always actually greener. It's really hard being a single parent (no matter how much people think oh Id be fine because I look after the kids when husband goes away for a week etc) and there are a lot of twats out there so you may end on your own or with someone even worse lol.

I have a slightly different take on all this. I think the expectation on women to work and earn their own ‘independent’ money once children come along sounds great in theory, but in reality, it just replaces one set of problems with another set. Most women I know who work full time struggle (or have struggled) with a significant amount of ‘mum guilt.’ Yes I think this is partly down to societal expectations, but equally (if not predominantly) its biological. The physical and emotional experience of having children is not the same for men and women. Never has been and never will be. I think to pretend we should just ‘get on with it’ in the workplace as if there is no difference does women a real disservice.

Most women I know who work full-time are perpetually knackered, to be honest. This takes its toll on your mental and physical health over time. Even where they have husbands who ‘do their share,’ plus cleaners etc, it still doesn’t mitigate the ‘mum guilt’. It’s easier for those who enjoy their jobs or get a sense of fulfilment, but even then it’s a tricky balance. Far more so than it is for men. Are modern day women actually happier than 100 years ago? I’m not sure they are. Most seem to just ‘manage’ life as it flies by and many seem utterly miserable. And few are ‘financially independent’ anyway, with the cost of living in 2021. Hamsters trapped in the wheel more like it.

Also, there are too many women now, who seem delighted to be in relationships with men who think it’s perfectly acceptable to have separate finances! They see no compunction whatsoever to financially provide for their families anymore. No it’s ‘on her’ as much as him apparently. I think this attitude is everything wrong in society, frankly. You hear of women who are in lower salaries but have to contribute 50/50 to everything. This is a new low standard where men are concerned. Yet many women interpret this as ‘independence.’

Yeah Dillon because the fact more men work in waste management is the reason women have to put up with so much crap in relationships with men…hmm

It's just as absurd as forcing young men to work in certain female dominated fields would lead to less crap behaviour from them. The problem with these discussions on Mumsnet is that you have a very biased sample, using the relationship boards here as some kind of barometer on the state of the nation's relationship health is absurd. In terms of appalling shit behaviour from people I have not seen men or women have a monopoly on this. Maybe I am unique in my experiences but most of my male friends have been in abusive crap relationships with some 'shit' women as much as my female friends have been in the receiving end of crap behaviour from men. Many of these men admit themselves that they suffered low self esteem, fear of loneliness and low expectations which allowed them in part to be abused by predatory people taking advantage. It's just sad seeing people give serious consideration to forcing young men into some kind of social national service.