To think this is pretty fucking awful?

[WWYD2020]

We have to stay in, waiting for test results and feel really quite ill so going out was not an option.

Our toddler has full force slapped the baby in the head with both hands 4 fucking times today, just so incredibly fast that I can’t stop him sometimes. I can’t put the baby down anywhere whilst he’s awake because 1) toddler will maul him and 2) he will usually just cry, he loves to look at us and interact, the baby hates the sling don’t even mention that .

So here I am not able to put the baby down whilst he’s awake toddler getting jealous because I can’t put the baby down even though he’s part of the reason and if the baby manages to fall asleep in the pram carry cot he just gets toys thrown at him/pram shaken/jumped on by his big brother. By the end of the day I was settling the baby on our bed and he cried every time he saw his brother coming, it was heart breaking.

What the hell are you meant to do?
Can’t put baby down (cry or get hurt). Can’t hold him (toddler jealous). Can’t put him to sleep elsewhere in day as he’s not over 6m yet so has to stay with us. Can’t put him to sleep in pram(again, brother wakes him up, usually with violence). Can’t put pram in another room because our toddler will open the doors and get to him.

Why is he in pure attack mode?
He’s cutting 4 incisors atm, so definitely more whiney than usual but we’ve been giving nurofen when he looks like he’s in pain. Didn’t make a difference today.

Honesty practical help, or advice plz what do you do?
This is awful, no?

I should have added to my post too that you are doing fantastically and one day this will all be a distant memory.

No advice OP but I am so sorry you're going through this. Sounds so tough bless you!!

Oh I'm sorry, that sounds really hard. Speaking from 25 years' of parenting experience (5 children) There are three things you need to do.

1. Look after your wellbeing.
2. Teach your toddler self control, and that means giving him more positive attention
3. Keep your baby safe
4. Set good examples

I'll start with 2. There is always a reason behind behaviour, and it is good to address the reason. Your toddler will behave better if he feels like he is getting his needs met. Hold baby on your hip whilst doing something that the toddler enjoys: eg read and book whilst cuddling, play a game, do an action song, get his favourite toys out and start to play with them. The thing you need is to give attention to the toddler when he is being "good" and then he will not be so desperate for attention that he annoys baby to get negative attention. For a child desperate for attention, even a telling off is a win. It's not them being devious, it is them being too immature to express their feelings any other way. Also, catch him doing good things and praise them lots. Especially notice and praise any tiny little thing he does that is kind, helpful, or shows consideration for others' needs. When he attacks baby, stop it but with minimum fuss, so there is no accidental "reward" of lots of attention or entertaining reaction to the bad behaviour.

Next comes 2. Happy mum, happy baby/toddler. If you are unwell and frustrated, both children will pick up on your stress and both will be more fractious. Do whatever is needed to make YOU feel happier, and then your vibes will make the little ones happier too. Maybe can you get someone to give you a half hour break? Or a once a week two hours off? Think about what you enjoyed before having babies - can you do that once a week? Or book in with your other half one evening a week where you have a long hot candlelit bath whilst he puts babies to bed. Anything that recharges your patience and joy levels.

in a short term emergency (like illness of mum) it is OK to sit together and watch children's TV and eat snacks. Try a nice video and a mug full of cheerios, apple slices and raisins. Not too unhealthy but really fun and might lift the mood in the home. Not every day, but just when needed to keep you all sane.

Then comes 3. If you do number 1 and 2, number 3 should naturally follow!

Lastly 4. Our children are always watching and will copy. If we demonstrate empathy, patience, self control, putting others' needs first...they will too. Hence why we need help from others, meaningful "me" time, and regular breaks from parent duty: to recharge so that we can keep on being that saint.

Your toddler is exhibiting the natural emotion of jealousy. Explain that if he hurts the baby it won’t be able to play with I’m when it’s older.
If he suppressed his feelings his personality will be warped. You need to be able to put the baby down and give the toddler 1-2-1 attention.

There's nothing wrong with putting the baby in his cot in another room for a nap during the day. You'll still be in the same house and with the modern accessories of baby listeners and cameras you can easily keep an eye on him. If babies had to be near us to regulate their heart rate and breathing, most of us wouldn't be here now! Your toddler needs to have quality time with you and baby's nap times are the ideal time to do this. Include him when you check on the baby, saying " I wonder how N is, do you think he is having a nice nap?" or something like that. Remember that toddlers still need plenty of sleep at this age and he probably still needs a nap during the day, but not when the baby is awake and with you or he will feel pushed out and be more jealous (but you probably knew that). I do sympathise with you. My eldest was very jealous of his three-year younger brother and I was constantly having to stop him doing something to hurt him. To encourage you though, he soon grew out of this and regarded his little brother with a sense of fascination. As they grew older, they became the best of friends.

Aww your toddler is really just a baby himself and you sound really insensitive to the way he must be feeling about having to share your attention at his age. Unlike him you and your DH chose to bring another child into the family so it’s now your job to go the extra mile to make sure he feels secure and happy. I don’t understand why you won’t let your younger child sleep upstairs during the day. You don’t watch him all night when he sleeps do you?

Another thing I found great when I felt ill:
Play doctors. toddler can pretend to look after you whilst you lay on the sofa cuddling baby. You can explain why you feel ill and talk him through the difficulties you have keeping baby happy when you are ill. If you have to stand up and go do something for baby, it is part of the game and you talk toddler doctor through what you find difficult (in play mode, not you complaining!) It teaches empathy through play.

Right, I spoke too soon.

Came back from a walk to see the Christmas lights, where the baby is essentially ignored because he’s low in the pram and just sleeps 😂, and I plonk the baby in a bouncer with a crispy toy and he’s content. Start playing with DS1 and after about 4 minutes of my undivided attention he runs over and hits him.

That’s not jealousy? Because he had my undivided attention.

How old were they @Hotelhelp ?

Oh your in survival mode at the min, it's a pretty grim place to be. I had 2 around the same age gap and definitely agree the toddler probably needs more "time" than baby. Are there any activities that your toddler loves? Reading? Drawing? Stick baby in bouncer and try your best to engage toddler to focus on an activity. Other things that made it more bearable was giving the older one "really important" tasks, like matching socks, picking the fruit you have at lunch, putting the toys in a box (even if they only stay in there for 5 mins). Try to make sure they don't feel they have to act up to get your attention, if they feel they already have it things should be easier. It doesn't feel like you are babbling into the aether but keep toddler engaged it a constant narrative and try to keep the "no" and "stop" to a minimum to stop them losing their impact. Even now (mine are all teens now) when I say a cross "no" they stop and listen because when I say it, it's not said often, I mean it. Don't be afraid to pop them infront of their favorite TV program for a bit of respite but do try to keep the TV off as much as possible so it going on is an event and should get their attention. Lastly good luck, it's really tough but it doesn't go on forever and be kind to yourself.

Sorry it does feel like you are babbling not doesn't. I always felt I was narrating what we were doing or singing about pants going the washing machine but it helped distract toddler from seeking out the baby.

Start playing with DS1 and after about 4 minutes of my undivided attention he runs over and hits him.

That’s not jealousy? Because he had my undivided attention.

Gosh that’s so difficult! I would definitely get a play pen and put baby in there, where he’ll be safe.

Re laughing - I pull a straight face and say ‘that is NOT funny’ and keep eyes locked until the penny drops. Or I say, ‘this is my sad face’ as they can grasp that and kids don’t want to upset you deep down.

I really feel for you, I worked in a nursery very briefly and it broke me!!! I have never been so exhausted 😴

I have 13 months between my 2 and how I got round this issue was the baby spent a lot of time in her little portable car seat out of harms way, often on top of the cooker. The older one would be banished to her cot for biting/physical violence towards the baby's. The older one is old enough to understand he's being naughty, but of course it's very difficult when you're in your own with both of them. Somehow you need to give him some 1-1 when the baby's asleep. Good luck, it will get better eventually.

I'd use a different voice when the older one hits/slaps the younger one. A short sharp and very different voice saying "STOP!" can be understood to be "Mum is very cross so I'd better not do that again". I think you're going to have to have consequences (I know it is very young to be introducing them but needs must) and you need to put the older one in a playpen (turn it upside down so they aren't strong enough to lift it up to escape). If the little one is ok, then put them in the playpen in their moses basket and take the older one upstairs so that they are completely separate and be firm and authoritative but keep the message really simple "No. We do not hit! I will set a timer and come back for you once it rings. Think about not hitting your brother/sister"
Was your DH there to witness this incident? What is his take on it? Did he intervene? Sometimes if they are getting too much attention from one parent they are looking for the attention of the other. Perhaps if he said "Stop! We do not hit!" instead of you, then it might be understood better/differently.
You need to be very firm here and establish those boundaries that neither child will cross as they grow up.
The time-outs or consequences though have to happen very very quickly after the incident.

I’d persist with a sling, mine are 17 months apart and it’s the only way I could do anything in the day. The soft wrapping kind have many different positions, can wrap them in the same position as you hold. It does pass!

Try a tuff tray (builders tray) which you can put play dough, messy play stuff etc for toddler - can be extended to use cars, small world play etc as he/they get older. Bouncy chair for baby or put in Moses basket/pram with some overhead toys/lights. Then spend lots of time with toddler playing, try to involve some play with baby - both of you play peekaboo at baby etc (this may have to wait until baby is a little older) read books about babies, baby animals and talk about how we have to be gentle and kind with babies.

Most of all - this is a phase and it will pass. Your oldest is coping with massive developmental- physical and emotional- surges. He acts the way he does, not through malice, but because he is a baby and still learning. Praise, love, distraction and more praise/attention. He has gone from being the centre of your universe (and his) to having to share you with an infant that doesn’t do much, yet takes all your time and energy. So it is understandable why he is acting the way he does x

@tara66 Please don't advise punishing a 17 month old for his actions - he's just a baby and not old enough to understand. In fact, punishments for children of any age with difficult behaviours don't usually work, anyway.

Sounds like the toddler wants attention and is jealous of the baby.
You’re always carrying the baby…so, the toddler is naturally jealous.
I think you need to put the baby down and give the toddler more attention. Make sure baby can see you and has something occupy them.

At 17 months he's still a baby himself. No wonder he's insanely jealous.

Definitely a playpen but for the baby, not the toddler. 16 months between our first two and 14 between the second two. Don't contain the toddler at stage it's more likely to increase the resentment, Massive reinforcement when toddler does something acceptable or nice. And upgrade the use of you no. If you only save it for dire times it's not going to have the effect you need it to - can't negotiate with them at that age.

Good luck.

We had padded from birth baby seat that could rock. Baby happily sat in it and watch everyone while played with toddler.

Also I put baby in travel cot (we had one in each room). Then take toddler with me if needed bathroom etc. The baby will get used to being put down.

I feel your pain. My two are 18 months apart and I remember every time my oldest bit my youngest. It started as soon as I brought her home. I looked on lovingly as he appeared to lean in for a kiss but that bubble burst when she held her breath and then screamed blue murder and I saw the teeth marks on her head. He was just a baby so dealt with it gently. I watched them like a hawk, never left them alone together, always had her strapped in, the Tripp trapp chair + baby attachment was my saviour. The last time he bit her she was 6 months old, he was two and he bit her across the lips and drew blood. I freaked out and he knew that I was proper angry at him, I shouted, he cried and that was the last time he did it. Who knows maybe he just needed a telling off maybe he out grew it. I'd love to say that they have a beautiful relationship now but to be honest 12 years on they still wind each other up!

To toddler the baby is this annoying screaming thing that is sharing his parents bedroom, is being constantly carried by his mum and taking attention that was his alone. It will get better. They are both so small. Loads people have stories about older siblings trying to send babies back.

Apparently if you give him attention eg stop that thats naughty is what he is after. So you give the baby attention and dont even acknowledge him, no shouting holding, or telling off. If he is good then you shower him with attention. Read somewhere may be cods