To think this is pretty fucking awful?

[WWYD2020]

We have to stay in, waiting for test results and feel really quite ill so going out was not an option.

Our toddler has full force slapped the baby in the head with both hands 4 fucking times today, just so incredibly fast that I can’t stop him sometimes. I can’t put the baby down anywhere whilst he’s awake because 1) toddler will maul him and 2) he will usually just cry, he loves to look at us and interact, the baby hates the sling don’t even mention that .

So here I am not able to put the baby down whilst he’s awake toddler getting jealous because I can’t put the baby down even though he’s part of the reason and if the baby manages to fall asleep in the pram carry cot he just gets toys thrown at him/pram shaken/jumped on by his big brother. By the end of the day I was settling the baby on our bed and he cried every time he saw his brother coming, it was heart breaking.

What the hell are you meant to do?
Can’t put baby down (cry or get hurt). Can’t hold him (toddler jealous). Can’t put him to sleep elsewhere in day as he’s not over 6m yet so has to stay with us. Can’t put him to sleep in pram(again, brother wakes him up, usually with violence). Can’t put pram in another room because our toddler will open the doors and get to him.

Why is he in pure attack mode?
He’s cutting 4 incisors atm, so definitely more whiney than usual but we’ve been giving nurofen when he looks like he’s in pain. Didn’t make a difference today.

Honesty practical help, or advice plz what do you do?
This is awful, no?

Have you considered a sling for your toddler? It means a different perspective (on your back/up high), baby is then safe in the pram to sleep. I've done this on desparate days!

Or baby in the playpen, protected from toddler.

If toddler likes messy play there are some great ideas. We used to put oats or rice crispies in a plastic tub with spoons and ladels and stacking cup and thry would spend ages filling up the stacking cups and emptying them. Or a prolonged bath for water play.

Otherwise as much time outside as possible.

Definitely 'baby' your toddler. It's such a hard transition and thry really are tiny.

@WWYD2020

I think you are looking for logic with your toddler that he isn't developmentally able for. I actually see him still as a baby, rather than a toddler, at 17 months.

From 2, I think that's more 'toddler' mode.

I think you're doing a great job & spending lots of time with older DS. You definitely don't need to feel you are doing anything wrong!

For DS, it's basically two things: this creature is a rival in some way, for his mum's attention, and, opportunism. Here's something I can hit, why not?

In another few months it'll be easier! For now, it's all about keeping baby out of harms reach. Which does mean limiting the bouncer unless you are right there & can protect the baby.

You're doing great & so are the DC. I enjoyed your writing style a lot too!

The thing is, as you are unlikely to discipline your toddler by smacking him he has absolutely no idea that when he hits the baby it hurts, a lot. I'm not suggesting you start smacking him, but some sort of unpleasant punishment, taking a toy off him, putting him into the cot (I would seriously consider buying one he can't climb out of) or even just strapping him into the pushchair so he can't move for a couple of minutes. While fussing over your baby.

Also, no over the top attention. No long winded explanations as to why it's bad. A simple, firm "NO!" and then don't interact with him for a couple of minutes.

@WWYD2020

Nobody has said they stare at their baby for 6months?

As I’ve said up thread, the current guidelines say, to keep them in the same room as you for the first 6 months. Not 6 months of eyeballing them😂.

But again, as said upthread it was suggested early on and it was a fantastic improvement ❤️

I still don't get it - so the baby is in the same room as you while you cook , do laundry etc as if somehow your very presence weaves a magic spell ? It sounds like the women in the 1990s with starving babies because they wouldn't supplement breast with bottle . Be sensible .

@IamGusFring

What?!?!

That post of yours is deranged. Keeping a baby close to you is a) natural b) something that most do instinctively and c) backed by scientific advice.

It may not be every second but sure, my babies were beside me as I cooked, folded laundry etc. Where would they have been?

but some sort of unpleasant punishment, taking a toy off him, putting him into the cot (I would seriously consider buying one he can't climb out of) or even just strapping him into the pushchair so he can't move for a couple of minutes. While fussing over your baby.

There's a point in here but also some harsh & not sensible suggestions.

Yes, every time OP's toddler hurts the baby, she must remove him, tell him 'no' and fuss over baby. That's sensible. Tho still, what she needs to do most is keep the baby away from toddler as much as she can.

But 'unpleasant punishment'? No. He's too little. He doesn't require a punishment.

Slings might be too much for him try a baby front or back carrier like a baby bjorn - does keeping him in a high chair help?

[quote EarringsandLipstick]@IamGusFring

What?!?!

That post of yours is deranged. Keeping a baby close to you is a) natural b) something that most do instinctively and c) backed by scientific advice.

It may not be every second but sure, my babies were beside me as I cooked, folded laundry etc. Where would they have been? [/quote]
Sleeping in their cot or pram maybe in another room or hall ....? I'm not deranged . I have managed to rear several children without endangering them . This is SIDS guidelines taken to the extreme .

I can relate to your frustration. I've had siblings act aggressive to next child and I have 4 daughters. My eldest I caught once with a pillow that was about to go over baby's face....

I think tbh there isn't anything that hasn't been suggested. What worked for me were stair Gates so baby could nap upstairs in cot with a monitor.

The biggest difficulty is trying to show that the baby isn't a threat to your eldest. Sometimes we put the baby out of sight give the older one attention and they learn if the baby isn't around mummy gives me attention.... as others have suggested wearing out eldest will help, at his age I'm hoping he's still having naps so making nap time somewhere u can read him a book and do something quiet is great. Messy play is great to and doing activities that are calm and fun. Doing puzzles pen and paper, homemade playhouse, toys etc.

Getting ur eldest to help with baby is great if he loves to help you, he can fetch things for u for baby, also going to the shops fresh air walking a dog if you have 1. Watching films sat having cuddles with both.

Anything that gets thrown gets put in a box... if u end up with just soft toys. Also another great thing that worked was an egg timer. Start it off really small like ok in 1 minute when this goes off we are gonna read a book so he learns that when it goes off something good is gonna happen. Then build it up so if u want to do something like washing or bathing baby or whatever u need to do and he is kicking off throwing things add minutes etc.

Find out what is his fave things to do fave toys fave films etc that if he starts to misbehave divert his attention to something else that isn't you. Last thing u want is for him to learn that if baby isn't around I get attention cos he will work out ways to make that happen. Plan a daily routine start to finish that includes both boys from brushing his teeth and pretending to brush babies to brushing his hair and showing him how to brush babies hair, having breakfast all 3 of you're adding, reading books together all 3 of you. Then maybe some kids excersize online if you can't go out. Then lunch time feed baby whilst eldest is eating. Then naps let him watch u " read a story to the baby" next to the cot just like u can do for his naps. Show him that they are both the same. If he smacks say no and distract her x

I put paw patrol on in the background when they are antagonising each other, mainly snatching rather than hitting in our case. I think sometimes they antagonise each other because they are bored and too tired to engage with playing. I find the telly in the background reduces violence as they have little bouts of staring at it like zombies instead of hitting each other or chucking themselves headlong off the sofa :-/ tends to happen in the evening witching hour or before nap time. Not ideal but they aren't going to crafting and doing sums at that stage of the day anyway.

Your toddler is going through a huge transition. He’s been used to having all the attention. Often it takes a few months for toddlers to start realising this new baby is here to stay. Sometimes longer.

Firstly you need to try and spend some 1:1 time with toddler. Special time for around 10 mins per day where you play on his level doing what he wants to do with you. Let him lead and choose the activity but no screens allowed. When you do special time get your partner to have the baby. Toddler needs to realise you are there for him too as he probably feels really jealous which is natural.

When your toddler hurts the baby take the baby away saying calmly to toddler ‘I’m removing baby from the situation because I want him to be safe.’ Label the toddlers emotion ‘I can see that you’re excited because you’re hitting your brother. Thing is, we can’t hit because it hurts, so I’m going to take baby brother somewhere safe until you can play with nice hands’. When he interacts nicely with little bro lavish toddler with praise. This way toddler learns the way you want him to behave. Toddlers have a basic understanding of emotion so need it calmly spelled out to them. If you are really struggling with behaviour speak to you heath visitor. They might be able to offer more support.

Is your toddler able to talk well? Sometimes they are more challenging when their speech and language is not quite there yet. They usually understand everything but can’t express it.

Also check diet for anything that might be causing behaviour issues. Sugar, encumbers etc some kids are really sensitive to anything artificial and this can cause more problems.

Is he sleeping well at night? Possibly not if you’ve all been ill?

I consider myself quite a strict parent but I can’t believe people are talking about punishing a 17 month year old, or just as bad packing him off to nursery when he obviously hasn’t got over the latest upheaval to his little life. OP unless you want your DS to feel even more resentful, jealous and confused ignore these suggestions. Instead love bomb your DS as much as possible, and put your baby down to sleep upstairs where he’ll be safe. The quicker you can show your eldest that the ‘imposter’ will not impact his life in a negative way the quicker he will adapt to having a wee brother and start to enjoy him rather than seeing him as a threat.

You’re going to need this book. www.amazon.co.uk/Siblings-Without-Rivalry-Children-Together/dp/1853406309/ref=nodl_?tag=mumsnetforu03-21
It near saved my sanity!

even just strapping him into the pushchair so he can't move for a couple of minutes. While fussing over your baby.

^^
Please don’t do this one! Actually made my blood run cold

I’m not going to be shouting/yanking him until he cries, as a grown adult I feel emotional when someone shouts at me so I can’t imagine what that must be like for a tiny person who doesn’t know how the world works.

I’ve started seeing things from his perspective though, and we’re doing it all wrong; this morning I stayed in bed with the baby and DH took DS1 downstairs for breakfast when he woke up and when I went down when the baby woke up for the day DH took the baby from me and I gave DS1 a cuddle and said good morning and whatnot. Which is nice for me because I’d had the baby since 2 am with all feedings/wakings/changes so DH was taking over. From DS1s perspective he was playing nicely with DH and then me and the baby rock up and daddy suddenly stops playing and goes away with the baby.

Small things like that, all day, have obviously mounted up. So tonight where usually we pop him in bed after a bath and have a few minutes saying good night, I stayed with him, rocking him and singing to him then put him down and stayed with him until he fell asleep. I think you’re right, he sees me/us rocking the baby to sleep all the time!!

I’m so glad I wrote this thread.
Sorry for keeping on but you really are helping.

Try buying a realistic baby doll for the toddler and show him how to cuddle the baby and look after it. I would suggest a Berenguer La Newborn from Smyths Toys. Get him to sit next to you and cuddle his baby whilst cuddling your baby. You can help him to be gentle and take care of it. Show him that you mustn't hurt babies and he will learn by example.

@WWYD2020 That's such a brilliant breakthrough! I love that you're looking at your own responses. Good luck!

What a lovely update OP. Glad you're hanging in there!

Feel your pain, ours were stupidly close in age! Nice now they are a bit older but there were days I didn’t know whether I was coming or going! It was the best day ever when I cracked getting them down for a nap at the same time. I’d often nap too then be better prepared for the rest of the day. We had a musical swing for the youngest and then a stand up play centre which allowed me to concentrate on the older one. Also as well as getting the older one to help with the baby we did lots of me carrying the baby to ‘get things’ or ‘do things’ for the older one and I think that helped. We had a ‘naughty step’ which worked well but I can’t remember what age we started it. You can’t go out while your unwell but normal times a walk or drive in the car, visit to elderly relatives, made their day, car journey you know they are safely strapped in and can’t reach each other. and a change of scenery was great even if only out the garden while I hung the washing out.CBeebies was the best invention ever, you can cuddle up under a blanket with the eldest and semi doze as they watch. Good luck, it does get better I promise (they still have the odd fight but the youngest rapidly got better at it than the eldest so it doesn’t happen so often!) x