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Original poster

Is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas if you're not a Christian?

323 replies

Katbut · 16/12/2021 23:53

OK slightly goady title as I don't think it is cultural appropriation at all but I'm so confused about current political correctness/wokeism about cultural appropriation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

From what I've read in the media recently, it's cultural appropriation to:

Have corn rows etc. if you're white.
Use chorizo in paella.
Let kids play cowboys and Indians.
Represent traditional cultures in theatre (eg removal of Arabian/Chinese dances in the Nutcracker ballet).
Look too tanned in case people think you're trying to look like a different race.

I'm sure there's loads more examples but it's late and my brain isn't working.

If all of these sorts of things are cultural appropriation, why is it OK for atheists to celebrate Christmas? I know the Christians adapted various pagan traditions into Christmas but the idea of "Christ"mas is purely Christian. How is this any different than other forms of cultural appropriation?

(For what it's worth, I personally think the whole cultural appropriation thing is massive overkill - it's often cultural appreciation rather than appropriation).

Just a random Friday night musing...

OP posts:
Weirdwonders · 17/12/2021 07:32

So atheists celebrating Christmas isn't a Problem (at least not one of cultural appropriation). So celebrate away

This is dismissive. Some might feel it is a problem as there have been societal changes in how the festival is celebrated, even during my lifetime. It is a matter of a dominant, secular culture appropriating a religious festival which used to at least have some recognisably Christian rationale behind it, though that’s probably more down to societal change than anything. Add to that the fact that people are sneery and dismissive about Christianity and it’s appropriation on some level. The festival isn’t even on the same timescale now - people decorate before the start of Advent and for them it’s all over just as the 12 Days of Christmas start. Am I allowed to be sad about that? Or is it Not a Problem?

ninja · 17/12/2021 07:33

If you were in a country where Christians were routinely persecuted and decided to celebrate it then you might have a point

I guess it's similar to non-catholics celebrating at Patrick's day after the catholics were persecuted for so long

gogohm · 17/12/2021 07:36

@Katbut my friend is Spanish, she puts chorizo in paella! Shes taught me. She's not from Valencia though, they cook it slightly differently to her.

I think it's fine to celebrate anything as long as you aren't mocking it

bigknickersbigknockers · 17/12/2021 07:38

I think the whole cultural appropriation thing is a load of bollocks. If you want to wear your hair in corn rows then do it, it looks nice and it may keep the hair out of your eyes and work well for you.
Fancy some lovely chorizo in your paella for tea? then dig in it tastes good.
Want a bit of a tan then do it but don't forget the sun screen.
Michael Jackson spent years whitening his skin ffs.

gogohm · 17/12/2021 07:41

Cultural appreciation is just fine

loislovesstewie · 17/12/2021 07:42

@Elfonthesofa

Well the whole reason we have Christianity in Europe in the first place is because of the Roman empire. Who did a lot of cultural appropriation amongst other nasty things.
And what did the Roman's do for us?
Imdreamingofapeacefulxmas · 17/12/2021 07:45

I'm sure it's already been mentioned a few times on the thread..

Klaxon - Christmas isn't actually religious festival its from way before christ to keep up our spirits in the darkest days!

GiveMeNovocain · 17/12/2021 07:45

How do you vote if you think people celebrating Christmas who aren't Christians isn't an issue and neither is the rest of your list of 'cultural appropriations'? Both your options mean I have to agree with the premise of your argument

rainbowmash · 17/12/2021 07:49

Blow that dog whistle any louder and you'll wake up the whole street...

Another "just a joke lol, but hasn't social justice gone bananas?" post? Really?

Overthinkingx3 · 17/12/2021 07:51

Just because people don’t understand what cultural appropriation is ( how hypocritical it is to pick and choose titbits from cultures whilst also oppressing them and disrespecting them) doesn’t mean cultural appropriation isn’t a thing
It is

Anyone in a nation celebrating a festival which can be both cultural and religious , or both - is not appropriation … unless they live on the moon and are planning to send a meteorite down to blast us. That would be cultural appropriation.

OP - you are being very unreasonable to ask such a goady question

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 17/12/2021 07:53

@bigknickersbigknockers

Michael Jackson spent years whitening his skin ffs.

Yes and I wonder why that was!?! Hmmm…

user478843898 · 17/12/2021 07:54

@PlanktonsComputerWife

Following. The Sikh family who run the hardware shop have the damned cheek to celebrate Christmas, and my Muslim colleague (who really is usually sane) informed me glibly that her family were planning, and I quote, "a nice dinner."

I want to know just how outraged I am entitled to get. I am already about 80% furious.

Lol well said!
user478843898 · 17/12/2021 07:55

OP - you are being very unreasonable to ask such a goady question

Seconded!

Ceramide · 17/12/2021 07:55

Humans have always been influenced by other humans. So-called 'appropriation' is just normal human behaviour. Artists, writers and musicians create work inspired by places they have visited. Fashion designers use patterns and design ideas from cultures which are not their own, from jeans (cowboy wear) to Aztec prints. Religions and philosophies borrow from one another and influence whatever comes next. For a Christian, Christmas is obviously about the birth of Christ, but yes it has adopted other elements such as the Christmas tree, from pagan traditions. As both a Christian and a nature lover I enjoy embracing both. And no doubt pagans were also influenced by ways more ancient than their own, which isn't often acknowledged. I prefer to see these things as sharing rather than 'hijacking' or 'appropriating'.

Antsgomarching · 17/12/2021 08:00

I’m celebrating winter solstice 😬 might look a bit christmassy but I assure you its not. I may have appropriated winter solstice as a brown person though…. Not sure 🤔

Haveyoubrushedyourteethtoday · 17/12/2021 08:02

I see what you did there lowislovesstewie!

sashh · 17/12/2021 08:09

Do you think Christians in the UK are a privileged group?

They are.

Most bank holidays are Christian festival.
Schools have terms arranged around those same festivals and have to have some form of collective worship.
C of E bishops sit in the house of lords.
Many people are forced to send their child to a faith school, the vast majority of which are Christian.

There are no atheist schools.

Klaxon - Christmas isn't actually religious festival its from way before christ to keep up our spirits in the darkest days!

It is religious. Pagan is a religion in the same way Hinduism is.

antisocialsocialclub · 17/12/2021 08:17

@Ceramide

Humans have always been influenced by other humans. So-called 'appropriation' is just normal human behaviour. Artists, writers and musicians create work inspired by places they have visited. Fashion designers use patterns and design ideas from cultures which are not their own, from jeans (cowboy wear) to Aztec prints. Religions and philosophies borrow from one another and influence whatever comes next. For a Christian, Christmas is obviously about the birth of Christ, but yes it has adopted other elements such as the Christmas tree, from pagan traditions. As both a Christian and a nature lover I enjoy embracing both. And no doubt pagans were also influenced by ways more ancient than their own, which isn't often acknowledged. I prefer to see these things as sharing rather than 'hijacking' or 'appropriating'.
But Christians DID hijack Yule … and Ostara (Easter) it’s no coincidence that Christmas falls around the Winter solstice and Easter falls around Ostara. It was done on purpose to stamp out Paganism. They put their festivals over the same time as Pagan festivals so they’d disappear. Ostara for example, is the Pagan festival of fertility… that where the eggs come from. They didn’t ‘borrow’ a few traditions like a Christmas tree they plonked their festivals over the top of Pagan ones, it just happens that certain pagan elements survived. It was oppression not a happy coincidence.
OnceuponaRainbow18 · 17/12/2021 08:22

From a black woman’s perspective cultural appropriation to me is wrong. It’s taking the ‘best’ parts of a culture without having to experience the every day struggles/worries/shit of being apart of that culture. We can’t pick and choose.

rarityroast · 17/12/2021 08:43

It is a matter of a dominant, secular culture appropriating a religious festival which used to at least have some recognisably Christian rationale behind it, though that’s probably more down to societal change than anything. Add to that the fact that people are sneery and dismissive about Christianity and it’s appropriation on some level. The festival isn’t even on the same timescale now - people decorate before the start of Advent and for them it’s all over just as the 12 Days of Christmas start. Am I allowed to be sad about that? Or is it Not a Problem?

But the 'Christian rationale' was literally shoehorned in to the existing festival. Christians tried to ban it a few hundred years ago because it was pagan and had no biblical justification. Jesus was probably born in summer and practically every part of Christmas as we know it can be traced back to before Christianity.

You're allowed to be sad that people are celebrating in different ways, sure, but I don't think you should expect much sympathy?

I also fail to see how being sneery is the thing that makes it appropriation. If a random Mumsnetter is sneery about Pagans, does that mean the Christian's appropriated Yule? (And easter... and halloween... and communion...). I don't think so. Times move on and cultures merge, that's the way of the world.

Moolia · 17/12/2021 08:46

It's interesting where we draw the line though isn't it?

Kids playing cowboys and American Indians is not OK.

But kids playing pirates is?

There are still pirates in lots of places in the world who kidnap and murder people and rape women. Why is OK for kids to pretend to be a pirate?

Overthinkingx3 · 17/12/2021 08:47

Using Aztec prints on high end designer clothes whilst deporting Mexicans and incarcerating Hispanic children is the very essence of appropriation

People here just show how insensitive and I evolved they are by refusing to undersrand racism and appropriation

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 17/12/2021 08:48

[quote OnceuponaRainbow18]@bigknickersbigknockers

Michael Jackson spent years whitening his skin ffs.

Yes and I wonder why that was!?! Hmmm…[/quote]
I know this one - he was seriously mentally ill.

FluffyBooBoo · 17/12/2021 08:48

Like the person from the USA who seemed to be blissfully unaware of the fact that Scotland and Wales are not the same as England

I wouldn't work about one American not knowing the difference, when I've come across more than one English person that doesn't.

FluffyBooBoo · 17/12/2021 08:51

Michael Jackson spent years whitening his skin ffs

No he didn't. I can't believe that there are people that still believe this.

He had a condition called vitiligo, which causes the loss of pimentation in the skin.