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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas if you're not a Christian?

323 replies

Katbut · 16/12/2021 23:53

OK slightly goady title as I don't think it is cultural appropriation at all but I'm so confused about current political correctness/wokeism about cultural appropriation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

From what I've read in the media recently, it's cultural appropriation to:

Have corn rows etc. if you're white.
Use chorizo in paella.
Let kids play cowboys and Indians.
Represent traditional cultures in theatre (eg removal of Arabian/Chinese dances in the Nutcracker ballet).
Look too tanned in case people think you're trying to look like a different race.

I'm sure there's loads more examples but it's late and my brain isn't working.

If all of these sorts of things are cultural appropriation, why is it OK for atheists to celebrate Christmas? I know the Christians adapted various pagan traditions into Christmas but the idea of "Christ"mas is purely Christian. How is this any different than other forms of cultural appropriation?

(For what it's worth, I personally think the whole cultural appropriation thing is massive overkill - it's often cultural appreciation rather than appropriation).

Just a random Friday night musing...

OP posts:
PilesEdgeworth · 17/12/2021 02:05

I think the last thing the OP is is “thick”.

I like what you’re doing here OP. These things need discussion and analysis but so often people are afraid to for fear of being shut down and branded “racist”, “thick” or ignorant. Some do like to dish out these conversation stunting insults rather than explain and tease out issues, and it’s hard to keep going in the face of them. I think you did well to.

It doesn’t need much analysis though does it?

Celebrating Christmas is basically imposed upon British people, as a result of the church’s current and historic power and place in our society. It, along with other Christian traditions, are taught to you in school. We have statutory holidays marking it (and other Christian festivals). There is a world of difference between forcing your culture down someone’s throat, and them appropriating it.

TooBigForMyBoots · 17/12/2021 02:39

Celebrating Christmas is a thing that people in the northern hemisphere have done for millennia. It wasn't always called Christmas, it happens on different dates, depending on stuff, and how we celebrate it, changes all the time.

It has sparkly lights, great food and maybe one good present inspires and is a reminder.Xmas Smile

WrongWayApricot · 17/12/2021 02:39

I've never seen an atheist at Christmas mass. Do you mean atheists should feel guilty about pulling crackers in their own homes? The crackers, presents and turkey aren't really Christian traditions, they're British ones. In other Christian countries they do little to none of what we think of as Christmas, but they do go to mass.

I wouldn't say that Christians culturally appropriated Pagan practices either. I'd say they bullied pagans into accepting a different religion. They tore down pagan sacred sites and built churches on top of them. Unless atheist groups have started running Richard Dawkins fan clubs in churches, I can't see how it's at all similar even if it is cultural appropriation.

StruggleStreet · 17/12/2021 03:03

Don’t remember the chorizo thing but Jamie Oliver has form for this doesn’t he: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-45246009.amp

AliveAndSleeping · 17/12/2021 03:13

Cultural appropriation is when a dominant culture picks an aspect from a minority culture or a people that get normally discriminated against and particularly so when the minority normally would get discriminated for that particular aspect like corn rows. So atheists celebrating Christmas isn't a Problem (at least not one of cultural appropriation). So celebrate away Xmas Smile

yaldyy · 17/12/2021 03:23

I would say that the dominant, secular, atheist culture is appropriating the minority, genuinely Christian culture. So very much cultural appropriation in this sense.

But the things most non-christians celebrate are the things that were in existence before the christians came.

The Christmas tree, for example, and the decoration of it. The lights. The 12 nights. The feast day. The giving and receiving of gifts.

If you do the above and you don't go to mass / church then you're not actually appropriating anything, because all of that was practiced by northern countries prior to anyone even knowing who Jesus Christ was.

This is a bit like the yearly moan about Halloween coming over from America when it was always celebrated in Scotland (and Ireland?) and probably taken over there by us in the first place.

loislovesstewie · 17/12/2021 05:49

@ZZTopGuitarSolo

To repeat the last line of my earlier post…

Want to learn more? It’s always best to do your own research rather than expect Indigenous friends or acquaintances to educate you.

Like the person from the USA who seemed to be blissfully unaware of the fact that Scotland and Wales are not the same as England.
Circlesandtriangles · 17/12/2021 05:59

Christian culture was rammed down my throat growing up as the dominant faith in my home country. Along with the power the Christian churches had came abuse and some of the most awful crimes against womens freedoms and dignity in the western world.

It's not cultural appropriation for people to take back the celebration of Christmas as one of family and festivity in my opinion.

What is your opinion? Do you believe Christmas has been culturally appropriated and youre offended? Or are you woke bashing?

Queenoftheashes · 17/12/2021 06:47

Jamie should have put rabbit in the paella

alienbaby · 17/12/2021 06:55

@ZZTopGuitarSolo
Some of the terms on that list are ridiculous though and its safe to ignore. Don't use the word "tribe", tribe massively predates colonialism as a concept. I don't see what the problem with spirit animal is either, or pow wow. Both of those now capture a feeling, an energy, rather than directly linking back to a specific culture.

Porcupineintherough · 17/12/2021 06:56

You cant culturally appropriate a paella recipe, only bastardise one.

AnotherThingToDo · 17/12/2021 07:04

OP none of this makes sense because most of your examples aren’t cultural appropriation. Some are racist for other reasons, but not cultural appropriation.

Porcupineintherough · 17/12/2021 07:05

I'm not sure I buy the narrative of Christianity being imposed on the poor pagans. Latterly that did of course happen, but the truth was a lot of former pagans actively embraced Christianity. It clearly offered them something that they werent getting from their previous beliefs or the power structure that went along with them.

But yeah, celebrating the winter solstice with lights and feasting is an ancient thing, a common heritage.

Elfonthesofa · 17/12/2021 07:11

Well the whole reason we have Christianity in Europe in the first place is because of the Roman empire. Who did a lot of cultural appropriation amongst other nasty things.

ViceLikeBlip · 17/12/2021 07:12

Cultural appropriation isn't illegal, it's just rude. It's especially galling when people from a majority ethnic group make money off food/styles/festivals from a minority group, particularly when that group themselves have historically not been appreciated or valued (or paid!) for it.

Some Christians are definitely very upset about the commercialisation of Christmas (largely by non-Christians) which I think probably does amount to the same thing as cultural appropriation.

DeepaBeesKit · 17/12/2021 07:15

Atheists who celebrate Christmas are generally culturally Christian just not religiously Christian

Wtf is a "cultural Christian". I'm an atheist. I celebrate the midwinter seasonal feast aspects of Christmas (e.g Yule) - an evergreen tree, a big meal/feasting, and gift giving to children, brought by old Father Christmas (not st nicholas).

Toplowlight · 17/12/2021 07:15

Christmas isn’t really an exclusive Christian festival anymore. It never was, in fact - Christians co-opted existing winter festivals as a form of evangelism. Having done so, they can hardly now complain that others use the opportunity to have a non-religious winter festival.

alienbaby · 17/12/2021 07:20

@Porcupineintherough
I agree. Christianity had more rules than the pagan religions. rules = civil order = wealth.

I dont know how many Christian traditions genuinely were lifted from pagan traditions and how many just reflect basic human urges in terms of working with the seasons, dividing the year into balanced parts etc. I mean is it really a coincidence that the birth of jesus, this uplifting moment of hope, just happens to be around the shortest day of the year? If Easter, aka christ's resurrection, happened in the glumness of autumn would it have the same effect? Is it really a surprise that nothing major happens in the Christian calendar in summer?

MolkosTeenageAngst · 17/12/2021 07:23

The majority of atheists who celebrate Christmas do so in a secular way. There is nothing religious about Father Christmas, stockings, Christmas dinner, families coming together, gifts, crackers, Christmas trees etc and a huge number of Christmas songs are completely unreligious (Wham, Band Aid, Mariah Carey, Wizzard etc). All of these aspects of Christmas are part of traditional British culture and not traditional Christian culture, Christmas in The Netherlands or Romania or Germany would be celebrated differently to a typical British Christmas despite them also being typically Christian countries.

Also most atheists in the UK will be culturally Christian if you go back two or three generations and Christmas is a long standing tradition in their family history. I was brought up as a Christian and attended Church every Sunday as a child, I’m now an atheist but that doesn’t mean I need to shun the traditions and cultures within which I was brought up. Most British atheists who celebrate Christmas will have Christian ancestors who celebrated Christmas and if you traced their history it will be part of their culture and tradition, therefore it’s not cultural appropriation because it is part of their culture.

Saying atheists who are from a Christian British background (even if we’re talking several generations ago) are culturally appropriating would be like saying a British person with Indian heritage (Eg: patents, grandparents or great parents born and lived in India) is culturally appropriating by wearing a sari for a special occasion because they usually wear Western clothes day to day. Something can be part of your heritage and be passed down to you from older generations and regardless of your own beliefs these traditions which may be rooted in a religion you don’t believe in can still be part of your culture.

user478843898 · 17/12/2021 07:25

Celebrating Christmas is a form of appreciation not appropriation. A quick search would have answered your question.

Cultural appropriation is the inappropriate or unacknowledged adoption of an element or elements of one culture or identity by members of another culture or identity. This can be controversial when members of a dominant culture appropriate from minority cultures.

According to critics of the practice, cultural appropriation differs from acculturation, assimilation, or equal cultural exchange in that this appropriation is a form of colonialism. When cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context ─ sometimes even against the expressly stated wishes of members of the originating culture – the practice is often received negatively.

Cultural appropriation is considered harmful by various groups and individuals, including Indigenous people working for cultural preservation, those who advocate for collective intellectual property rights of the originating, minority cultures, and those who have lived or are living under colonial rule. Cultural appropriation can include exploitation of another culture's religious and cultural traditions, dance steps, fashion, symbols, language, and music.

Those who see this appropriation as exploitative state that cultural elements are lost or distorted when they are removed from their originating cultural contexts, and that such displays are disrespectful or even a form of desecration. Cultural elements that may have deep meaning to the original culture may be reduced to "exotic" fashion or toys by those from the dominant culture. Kjerstin Johnson has written that, when this is done, the imitator, "who does not experience that oppression is able to 'play', temporarily, an 'exotic' other, without experiencing any of the daily discriminations faced by other cultures". The academic, musician and journalist Greg Tate argues that appropriation and the "fetishising" of cultures, in fact, alienates those whose culture is being appropriated.

The concept of cultural appropriation has also been heavily criticised. Critics note that the concept is often misunderstood or misapplied by the general public, and that charges of "cultural appropriation" are at times misapplied to situations such as trying food from a different culture or learning about different cultures. Others state that the act of cultural appropriation as it is usually defined does not meaningfully constitute social harm, or the term lacks conceptual coherence. Additionally, the term can set arbitrary limits on intellectual freedom, artists' self-expression, reinforce group divisions, or promote a feeling of enmity or grievance rather than of liberation.

HikingforScenery · 17/12/2021 07:29

Christianity isn’t a culture. It’s a faith. Christians shouldn’t care that others are celebrating Christmas. Any Christian who does is possibly practising the faith incorrectly.

This has nothing to do with being woke .

CoverYourselfInChocolateGlory · 17/12/2021 07:29

YABU. I am an atheist but grew up in a Christian society and Christmas is a big part of my cultural tradition. It's my culture, not my religion.

PlanktonsComputerWife · 17/12/2021 07:31

Following. The Sikh family who run the hardware shop have the damned cheek to celebrate Christmas, and my Muslim colleague (who really is usually sane) informed me glibly that her family were planning, and I quote, "a nice dinner."

I want to know just how outraged I am entitled to get. I am already about 80% furious.

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 17/12/2021 07:32

I think you’re belittling cultural appropriation

slashlover · 17/12/2021 07:32

Google "jamie oliver chorizo paella cultural appropriation". There's a few mentions of it there amongst the Jerk rice appropriation, which I forgot about.

Can you link to an article because not one I can find mentions cultural appropriation, just the people are annoyed that it's not a traditional recipe?