Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas if you're not a Christian?

323 replies

Katbut · 16/12/2021 23:53

OK slightly goady title as I don't think it is cultural appropriation at all but I'm so confused about current political correctness/wokeism about cultural appropriation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

From what I've read in the media recently, it's cultural appropriation to:

Have corn rows etc. if you're white.
Use chorizo in paella.
Let kids play cowboys and Indians.
Represent traditional cultures in theatre (eg removal of Arabian/Chinese dances in the Nutcracker ballet).
Look too tanned in case people think you're trying to look like a different race.

I'm sure there's loads more examples but it's late and my brain isn't working.

If all of these sorts of things are cultural appropriation, why is it OK for atheists to celebrate Christmas? I know the Christians adapted various pagan traditions into Christmas but the idea of "Christ"mas is purely Christian. How is this any different than other forms of cultural appropriation?

(For what it's worth, I personally think the whole cultural appropriation thing is massive overkill - it's often cultural appreciation rather than appropriation).

Just a random Friday night musing...

OP posts:
DysmalRadius · 17/12/2021 01:04

I can't find much to suggest that JO's chorizo was blasted for cultural appropriation, except in a mention as part of a trend to bastardiserecipes - people just said that it wasn't really a paella as it contained so many non-traditional ingredients.

He was blasted for cultural appropriation over his jerk rice though, as it bore no resemblance to the cultural dish he claimed had 'inspired' him and was in reference to a ready meal that he was selling under his brand, using the term 'jerk' to misrepresent what was actually in the dish.

I can understand that, as a) it's a more direct profit-making venture than a recipe and b) is more about misappropriating a term from a culture that has already suffered through colonisation by the British in a way that Spain has not.

DysmalRadius · 17/12/2021 01:05

@Katbut

OK slightly goady title as I don't think it is cultural appropriation at all but I'm so confused about current political correctness/wokeism about cultural appropriation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

From what I've read in the media recently, it's cultural appropriation to:

Have corn rows etc. if you're white.
Use chorizo in paella.
Let kids play cowboys and Indians.
Represent traditional cultures in theatre (eg removal of Arabian/Chinese dances in the Nutcracker ballet).
Look too tanned in case people think you're trying to look like a different race.

I'm sure there's loads more examples but it's late and my brain isn't working.

If all of these sorts of things are cultural appropriation, why is it OK for atheists to celebrate Christmas? I know the Christians adapted various pagan traditions into Christmas but the idea of "Christ"mas is purely Christian. How is this any different than other forms of cultural appropriation?

(For what it's worth, I personally think the whole cultural appropriation thing is massive overkill - it's often cultural appreciation rather than appropriation).

Just a random Friday night musing...

You literally included 'cowboys and indians' in your OP.
ABCeasyasdohrayme · 17/12/2021 01:06

Please quote where I used the phrase? My intellectually challenged brain can't find it

Its in your first post, under the list of things that are now politically correct.

Katbut · 17/12/2021 01:08

Interesting...

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

As of 1995, according to theUS Census Bureau, 50% of people who identified as Indigenous preferred the termAmerican Indian, 37% preferredNative American, and the remainder preferred other terms or had no preference.[17]

I mixed up the two it's 1am and I've had wine and wrongly said native Indian which obviously doesn't make sense. But I'm pretty sure I didn't anywhere use the phrase cowboys and Indians.

OP posts:
alienbaby · 17/12/2021 01:09

I like this thread it's like one massive rabbit hole. I feel safe here.

Katbut · 17/12/2021 01:09

D'oh sorry. Hold my hands up there, sorry.

But still don't understand why even using the phrase cowboys and Indians is racist.

OP posts:
Katbut · 17/12/2021 01:11

@alienbaby

I like this thread it's like one massive rabbit hole. I feel safe here.
Offensive to rabbits. They don't have holes. They have warrens. Rabbit racist.
OP posts:
Dafyddw · 17/12/2021 01:11

😂 you did op. You said Let kids play cowboys and Indians right at the first post.

Not that it matters. It's a discussion. I don't think you deserved the abuse you got for it. But I'm sure gobby bird will disagree in their disagreeable manner.

ABCeasyasdohrayme · 17/12/2021 01:13

@Katbut

D'oh sorry. Hold my hands up there, sorry.

But still don't understand why even using the phrase cowboys and Indians is racist.

In what context would you ever need to use the phrase?

Unless it's to say something like "I used to play C&I in school but realise it's completely racist now" there would never be any need to say it.

alienbaby · 17/12/2021 01:13

I find you saying rabbits only have warrens not holes very womb-centric

Katbut · 17/12/2021 01:13

@DysmalRadius

I can't find much to suggest that JO's chorizo was blasted for cultural appropriation, except in a mention as part of a trend to bastardiserecipes - people just said that it wasn't really a paella as it contained so many non-traditional ingredients.

He was blasted for cultural appropriation over his jerk rice though, as it bore no resemblance to the cultural dish he claimed had 'inspired' him and was in reference to a ready meal that he was selling under his brand, using the term 'jerk' to misrepresent what was actually in the dish.

I can understand that, as a) it's a more direct profit-making venture than a recipe and b) is more about misappropriating a term from a culture that has already suffered through colonisation by the British in a way that Spain has not.

Google "jamie oliver chorizo paella cultural appropriation". There's a few mentions of it there amongst the Jerk rice appropriation, which I forgot about.
OP posts:
Katbut · 17/12/2021 01:16

@ABCeasyasdohrayme why does it make any difference to a discussion about whether a phrase is racist that I would probably have no need to use it in everyday life? I probably won't ever need to say it. But I would like to know why using the phrase is racist.

OP posts:
Katbut · 17/12/2021 01:18

@alienbaby

I find you saying rabbits only have warrens not holes very womb-centric
Well you could say that the phrase "down the rabbit hole" is sexist then as male rabbits have one hole and female rabbits have two. So down the rabbit hole only refers to male rabbits. So actually I'm being anti-womb-centric.
OP posts:
Katbut · 17/12/2021 01:25

And that is how to kill a thread. Goodnight.

OP posts:
ZZTopGuitarSolo · 17/12/2021 01:28

@Katbut

Interesting...

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

As of 1995, according to theUS Census Bureau, 50% of people who identified as Indigenous preferred the termAmerican Indian, 37% preferredNative American, and the remainder preferred other terms or had no preference.[17]

I mixed up the two it's 1am and I've had wine and wrongly said native Indian which obviously doesn't make sense. But I'm pretty sure I didn't anywhere use the phrase cowboys and Indians.

You realise there’s a difference between American Indian and Indian, right?
ABCeasyasdohrayme · 17/12/2021 01:29

[quote Katbut]@ABCeasyasdohrayme why does it make any difference to a discussion about whether a phrase is racist that I would probably have no need to use it in everyday life? I probably won't ever need to say it. But I would like to know why using the phrase is racist.[/quote]
Because a huge amount of Indigenous people really dislike it being used to describe them. It's a reductive term, and dilutes the history involved and invokes images of awful stereotypes, which, historically (and currently) has made money for the white people who have been oppressing them for many years.

If it upsets or offends the people who are most affected by the use of the term, then just don't do it. It's really that simple.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 17/12/2021 01:31

From www.google.com/amp/s/www.nativeknot.com/amp/news/Native-American-News/Native-American-or-American-Indian-How-to-Talk-About-Indigenous-.html

Terms to avoid
“Native American,” “American Indian,” and “Indigenous people” are all acceptable terms.

Some terms, on the other hand, simply aren’t polite, accurate or acceptable in any context. These include:

“Indian.” On its own, “Indian” refers to people from India, so you wouldn’t use it to describe an Indigenous person.

“Natives.” Someone might say, “I’m Native,” dropping the “American,” but white oppressors have traditionally used the plural “natives” in negative and dismissive ways. Don’t call people “natives,” even if they refer to themselves with that term.

“Eskimo.” Many Alaska Natives, Inuit, Yupik, and other Indigenous peoples from the Arctic region consider this colonial term racist and derogatory.

“Spirit animal.” Don’t refer to anything as your “spirit animal,” no matter what level of affinity you feel for it. This term isn’t just appropriative. It also turns Indigenous cultural traditions into jokes and meme fodder.

“Tribe.” Call your friends your friends, your besties, your crowd, your mates — but not your tribe. “Tribe” carries connotations of “primitive” or “savage.” It’s a microaggression toward Indigenous Americans as well as Indigenous peoples of other countries who also suffered white colonization.

“Savage.” OK, maybe you absolutely wouldn’t use “savage” to refer to someone in a negative way. But before you praise someone for their “savage” takedown of that social media mutual, remember that settlers used this term to oppress Indigenous Americans and strip them of their humanity to better justify the theft of their land and the dismissal of their traditions.

A few others to skip. Other no-gos include “powwow,” “chief,” and “Indian giver.” Also, traditional clothing worn during dances is called regalia, not a “costume.”

The bottom line

Some Indigenous people may favor the term “Native American,” while others prefer “American Indian.” Many people may not mind which term you use, as long as you speak with respect.

If someone does tell you their specific nation, state a preference, or explain they find a certain term offensive, simply apologize and use the correct terminology going forward.

Honor their right to label their own identity instead of insisting on the term you consider correct.

Want to learn more? It’s always best to do your own research rather than expect Indigenous friends or acquaintances to educate you.

LondonWolf · 17/12/2021 01:32

I think the last thing the OP is is “thick”.

I like what you’re doing here OP. These things need discussion and analysis but so often people are afraid to for fear of being shut down and branded “racist”, “thick” or ignorant. Some do like to dish out these conversation stunting insults rather than explain and tease out issues, and it’s hard to keep going in the face of them. I think you did well to.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 17/12/2021 01:34

It is weird that the OP’s Google doesn’t work.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 17/12/2021 01:39

BTW where I live people also tend to refer to themselves by their tribal nation membership eg Maliseet, Micmac, Penobscot and Passamaquoddy.

Dafyddw · 17/12/2021 01:40

@ZZTopGuitarSolo

It is weird that the OP’s Google doesn’t work.
I'm sure it does work. As I'm sure you know. But if everyone just directed themselves to Google, rather than engaging in conversation and debate about people's opinions and why they hold them, then these forums would get rather dull.

Dont you think?

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 17/12/2021 01:45

To repeat the last line of my earlier post…

Want to learn more? It’s always best to do your own research rather than expect Indigenous friends or acquaintances to educate you.

riti44885 · 17/12/2021 01:49

As someone who grew up in an atheist country i.e.USSR and came tobthebUK as a late teen l, celebrating Christmas has always felt like cultural appropriation. Truthfully, I don't really get it and it does feel fake to celebrate it. However, the big difference with other forms of cultural appropriation is the sheer pressure in this country to celebrate it whether you believe or not. As lots of people already showed it on this thread...everyone tells you its not a Christian tradition (it really is if you are an atheist and never grew up with the concept of Christmas or religious festivals) and why are you spoiling the fun.

FluffyBooBoo · 17/12/2021 01:52

So, if people with christian parents or grandparents shouldn't celebrate the traditions of their childhood, just because they don't believe?

So should people of Asian (for example) origin that are born in this country forego the traditions of their parents and grandparents, because they themselves are British?

TooBigForMyBoots · 17/12/2021 01:59

I'm broadly Christian, I love food, sparkly lights, music and the sense of communion that Christmas brings. It has a spirit of its own.

The more, the merrier.Xmas Grin

Swipe left for the next trending thread