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Original poster

Is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas if you're not a Christian?

323 replies

Katbut · 16/12/2021 23:53

OK slightly goady title as I don't think it is cultural appropriation at all but I'm so confused about current political correctness/wokeism about cultural appropriation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

From what I've read in the media recently, it's cultural appropriation to:

Have corn rows etc. if you're white.
Use chorizo in paella.
Let kids play cowboys and Indians.
Represent traditional cultures in theatre (eg removal of Arabian/Chinese dances in the Nutcracker ballet).
Look too tanned in case people think you're trying to look like a different race.

I'm sure there's loads more examples but it's late and my brain isn't working.

If all of these sorts of things are cultural appropriation, why is it OK for atheists to celebrate Christmas? I know the Christians adapted various pagan traditions into Christmas but the idea of "Christ"mas is purely Christian. How is this any different than other forms of cultural appropriation?

(For what it's worth, I personally think the whole cultural appropriation thing is massive overkill - it's often cultural appreciation rather than appropriation).

Just a random Friday night musing...

OP posts:
Beckert · 17/12/2021 00:21

@XmasSadface

Atheists who celebrate Christmas are generally culturally Christian just not religiously Christian
That's a good way to describe it. My daughter said recently that she was a Christian who doesn't believe in God. What she means is that she takes on much of the personal values around Christianity without actually being religious. Probably because she is from a long family history of actual Christians. A cultural Christian is a perfect way to describe it.
Sugarandshine · 17/12/2021 00:22

Many reasons
Primarily Christianity is ‘dominant’
Cultural appropriation is about people from a dominant culture taking things from a Less dominant culture

It is also about taking things from that culture that we penalise people from that culture doing/having
Christianity is not one of those things

alienbaby · 17/12/2021 00:23

I would say amen out of respect for the other peoples god, I would sing a song of worship because I love the beauty of those moments. I wouldn't christen a child as that would be a lie

Original poster
Katbut · 17/12/2021 00:23

Doesn't that mean that you've appropriated the Christian culture from Christians though?

I know I'm being difficult here but I just think it's an interesting philosophical question as it seems that people get outraged about chorizo in paella but not about, as PP pointed out, the fact that Thanksgiving is celebrating native Indians being slaughtered and robbed!

OP posts:
Ariann · 17/12/2021 00:23

@weegiemum

I'm a very committed evangelical Christian (in a very uk left wing way, not American!!).

I'm delighted that anyone celebrates Christmas. For me, I know Jesus wasn't born on 25 December but it's a date to focus on. I'm preaching at our carol service on Sunday morning.

But there's a huge amount of sense in having a midwinter holiday. A Festival of Lights is really important, if it's Christmas, Diwali or Hannuka. Or anything else, Yule etc.I think if I wasn't a Christian I'd be a pagan, I love the circle of the year.

So I do t think it's cultural appropriation at all. Please join in, the more, the merrier!

That first sentence is awful, and you don't sound like a Christian. You're a judgmental snob.
Original poster
Katbut · 17/12/2021 00:24

@Sugarandshine

Many reasons Primarily Christianity is ‘dominant’ Cultural appropriation is about people from a dominant culture taking things from a Less dominant culture

It is also about taking things from that culture that we penalise people from that culture doing/having
Christianity is not one of those things

How does that apply to chorizo?
OP posts:
TuftyMarmoset · 17/12/2021 00:24

@Choccorocco faith schools are not limited to Christian ones though I appreciate it depends on what happens to be in your local area. There are Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and Hindu faith schools in England so if you lived somewhere else maybe you would have needed to pretend to be a different religion Smile

Justajot · 17/12/2021 00:25

Christians are a privileged group in many ways. There's priority access to a wider range of schools and a daily act of worship in those schools and political representation in the House of Lords.

Whilst I'm sure there are many underprivileged Christians, there is structural privilege that favours Christians in our society, partly as a result of having an established religion.

Original poster
Katbut · 17/12/2021 00:25

"That first sentence is awful, and you don't sound like a Christian. You're a judgmental snob."

Irony?!

OP posts:
antisocialsocialclub · 17/12/2021 00:26

@MissMinutes24

I still can't get over the fact that Americans' biggest festival (it's bigger than Christmas) is to celebrate the day their forefathers came and slaughtered a bunch of Native Americans and stole their land.

Thanksgiving should have been the first festival to go under the new wokeism rules but apparently they still love it.

I can’t get over the fact the French celebrate Bastille day which is basically, at the crux of it, celebrating chopping their King & Queens heads off. 🤷🏻‍♀️
Berkeys · 17/12/2021 00:27

@alienbaby actually many ‘westerners’ practice Buddhism in a far more committed way than some (not all) from culturally Buddhist countries (for whom it is just feast days and statues etc rather than radically transforming one’s mental states) I know this by talking to friends from various such cultures who also practice in the West (- their words not mine above). Also Buddhism is the least ‘othering’ of all the religions I have known and all are welcome so it’s not a competition.

I think this whole cultural appropriation thing has gone a bit far though. I think marginalised groups get the final say but I don’t think it means we should be scared of using certain food ingredients in recipes or liking whatever music we happen to like. It seems a very limiting view of things to me - what would not have been created if this limitation had always existed - and slightly feeds into the polarisation of us:them that seems to be worryingly omnipresent.

alienbaby · 17/12/2021 00:27

I dont see it as being the Christians culture I see it as being my culture

TuftyMarmoset · 17/12/2021 00:27

That first sentence is awful, and you don't sound like a Christian. You're a judgmental snob.

What? She was literally clarifying that she’s not a social conservative. That’s the opposite of being a judgmental snob…

Beckert · 17/12/2021 00:27

That first sentence is awful, and you don't sound like a Christian. You're a judgmental snob.

Wow. Hmm

Choccorocco · 17/12/2021 00:27

I’m saying that you can be racially prejudiced against white people in the U.K. - in fact most people are racially prejudiced insofar as they have generated beliefs about people of different races - you can even discriminate against white people (where discrimination is showing behaviour based on your prejudices), but in terms of racism - which is the system of prejudice plus power, embedded in social structures, regulations etc that in the privileges whites, whites don’t face racism in anything like the same way that people or other colours do. Because the structures of power are not set against them.

BeMoreGoldfish · 17/12/2021 00:29

@antisocialsocialclub you know that’s not remotely comparable right? The French Revolution marked the time when the people rose up against their oppressors and begun tte slow process of democratisation. The Founding Fathers was almost the opposite for the indigenous people!

gobbynorthernbird · 17/12/2021 00:30

The phrase 'cowboys and Indians' is racist as fuck. The Nutcracker etc use racist caricatures.

alienbaby · 17/12/2021 00:30

Re putting chorizo in your paella just ask yourself: what would jesus do?

Sugarandshine · 17/12/2021 00:32

@katbut It doesn’t because that one isn’t cultural appropriation it’s bastardisation of a recipe

I suppose Appropriation would be if we said we now make better paella than the Spanish and then if they also make it with chorizo say they’re doing it wrong

Original poster
Katbut · 17/12/2021 00:32

@gobbynorthernbird

The phrase 'cowboys and Indians' is racist as fuck. The Nutcracker etc use racist caricatures.
Why is cowboys and Indians racist?
OP posts:
Original poster
Katbut · 17/12/2021 00:33

[quote Sugarandshine]@katbut It doesn’t because that one isn’t cultural appropriation it’s bastardisation of a recipe

I suppose Appropriation would be if we said we now make better paella than the Spanish and then if they also make it with chorizo say they’re doing it wrong[/quote]
But Jamie Oliver didn't say his recipe was better than the Spanish one and he still got criticised for cultural appropriation.

OP posts:
gobbynorthernbird · 17/12/2021 00:33

Are you thick, OP?

Original poster
Katbut · 17/12/2021 00:35

I don't think so, no. 🤔

OP posts:
CoffeeMuggins · 17/12/2021 00:36

@alienbaby

Re putting chorizo in your paella just ask yourself: what would jesus do?
He wouldn't serve paella without, that's for sure.
PutYourBackIntoit · 17/12/2021 00:38

It's ok to be a cultural Christian, just like it is to be a cultural Jew, Muslim or Hindu.

It's not offensive to follow traditions, in fact I'd say its important we do.

Bwtaf re chorizo? Surely pineapple on pizza is much more offensive