To think DH is selfish denying the DC Christmas?

[ohganggang]

Been together 7 years, married for 5. We have a 4 year old DD, a 2 year old DS and I'm pregnant with out 3rd. DH was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they do not celebrate Christmas as they believe it is satanic. The religion has a shunning policy and DH got shunned by his family and friends when it came out he was in a relationship with a non-JW (me) at the start of our relationship as that is forbidden. He is essentially dead to his mum, dad and siblings.

DH had stopped believing in the religion long before I came on the scene and was just keeping up pretenses for his family until he got found out. He is now as atheist as they come. He has a lot of religious trauma from his childhood, from growing up believing the world was about to end, watching the kids at his school celebrating Christmas and 'knowing' they were going to be killed in Armageddon for it (they teach that God will kill literally everybody who isn't a JW, no exceptions), being taught that the world is run by Satan etc etc. He lived his childhood in perpetual fear. I have advised him to seek counselling and he won't.

He now rejects anything to do with religion, and can't be doing with Christmas. He actually gets depressed every year around the Christmas season and says it's because it brings up the trauma of his childhood. Because of this, we've never bothered with Christmas together. For the first couple of years of the relationship before living together, marriage and DC I'd just go to my family on Christmas Day as usual. Christmas 2017 after DD was born, we stayed home and did nothing and it was the first year I didn't do anything for Christmas. Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on. He also wants the kids to be completely atheist and have nothing to do with religion. I accepted that.

But DD is now 4, and in pre-school, and the pre-school is making a huge deal out of Christmas coming up soon. I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine but we're in a small town with not much cultural diversity so I think they've assumed all of the kids will be celebrating at home. They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread. Naturally, the talk of a Christmas nativity, the kids being hyped up about an upcoming Christmas 'party' and general encouragement for the kids to talk about Christmas among themselves, has resulted in DD getting excited for Christmas.

I have told DH today that I don't think it's fair on the kids and that I don't think it's right to project his trauma on to the kids. To me it seems like a case of "I didn't get to have Christmas so why should my kids?". I do understand his trauma though. I tried to compromise saying we don't have to decorate the house but I am doing presents for the kids and me and the kids will go to my parents on the day to celebrate and he can stay at home. He says no, that he isn't comfortable with his kids having "that religious bullshit in their lives". I'm really annoyed with him.

@Rumplestrumpet

We're members of a religious minority and teach our kids that the story of Christmas is just a story. It doesn't fit in with our religion and pre-kids we didn't celebrate it all all.

But I've come to see it as part of our culture as Brits and, quite frankly, I've realised since having kids that the sparkly lights, merry songs and charity is lovely.

So now we have sparky lights and we're having a small celebration with family and friends, and giving the kids small gifts.

I think your husband needs to take a step back consider what is in his children's best interest, and work out how to deal with his own trauma in order to give them this.

Good post It is a cultural thing And mid winter pagan festival It s a uk holiday Don't let dh ruin it Or dismiss what you want to do for your dc And fitting in with their peers

He needs to deal with it. You're kind of enabling him staying in this murky state by letting him stop the kids from doing normal things.

Christmas can be evergreens, candles, oranges, a roast dinner and a few presents. You don't need anything religious, it's just a midwinter festival to cheer everyone up.

Don't be that person who complains about schools doing nativity plays though!

I completely admit to underestimating the massive effect his upbringing has had on him, and having his own children has bought it out much more.

When DD was a newborn his mum sent her a present in the post and messaged him asking him to come back to Jehovah for the baby's sake and he wasn't himself for weeks.

Christmas isn’t about the adults when you have a family it’s about the children. My husband never had Christmas Trees or decorations for similar reasons to your husband. So I’ve practiced a form of immersion therapy and we now have four trees in the house with flashing lights . Get the tree, decorate it but maybe refrain from putting stars and angels on it.

He needs therapy. Not having christmas for his kids isn't going to solve the problems he clearly has as a survivor of a deeply traumatic childhood.

You need to draw a line between his trauma and your children's childhood. Does he really expect his children to go through a normal UK schooling and get up on 25th December every year to the same day as the rest of the year? that just won't happen. They will either have a secular christmas celebration like the majority or they will experience his trauma.

He is traumatised. He is NOT the right parent to make this decision. He will make a bad decision because his childhood will have made him incapable of seeing how normal families behave.

I live in a very secular part of the US and people are generally deeply considerate of other people's religion/atheism/whatever but even then I don't know anyone who doesn't put on a bit of the holly for 25 December or the season in general. I have jewish friends who would come to ours for a big celebration on xmas eve when the kids were little. I don't think I know anyone who is actually religious anymore (we are probably the most religious of our friends and that is not saying much) but everyone we know does something - even if it is a movie and a trip to chinatown - it is still special.

my mum now 84 was your husband as a child , she has talked even now of the sheer embarressment of being the only jw in the whole school , never being allowed to accept a christmas card from anyone else , getting dragged around door to door to push the watchtower on the neighbours , this was all in rural canada as well , she left the faith when she was in her twenties and once she moved to the uk she had not a lot of contact with my grandparents anyway , they didnt totally shun her though , she was never close to them , she says she feels she was almost abused by them ,
and she also listened to the stuff about satan and the world ending on so and so and the faithful being saved , all that stuff

she just got on with her life and celebrates christmas like everyone else , she hasnt let it rule her life , sadly until your husband deals either through counselling or just making his mind up hes not going to let his past rule his present theres not a lot you can do other than to give him an ultimatum you dont want his demons from his childhood affecting your children

Your idea of Christmas with your side feels like a sensible compromise and he is being very selfish if he denies it for your children knowing how sad it made him. I think you will struggle at primary if he is going to be so absolutist tbh. From mid November it has been all about practicing the nativity.

You have children now.

You have responsibility for young lives and so does he.

I would tell him - it is crunch time. Counselling, or you leave with DC.

He's going to give them the same traumatic childhood he had.

I think the what ifs are still in his head and the worry and fear. I know a few ex jws and while they celebrate Christmas and birthdays etc they still worry. Christmas isn’t about religion and he cannot stop your children celebrating it. If he doesn’t want to be involved can he stay elsewhere so you and the kids can celebrate.

Please don’t let his fears attach on to the kids. It’s unreasonable and honestly cruel. He needs some help and fast.

@ohganggang

I agree with you all that Christmas doesn't necessarily have to be religious these days.

For all he goes on about how it's just because he wants the kids to be completely atheist, I think it's actually a case of subconsciously not being able to bear seeing them having Christmas and being happy when he didn't.

The religous trauma he has is massive, his mum was an extremely devout JW. During a bad weather event when he was 7 she thought it was Armageddon happening and made him pack all his bags to 'flee to safety' until God came and saved them and he believed it all at the time and was terrified, he has never forgotten it.

That last bit is horrendous. Poor boy. But does he not see that he is now forcing his beliefs (lack thereof) on his kids? If he had an un-skewed view of this, he would want his kids to make up their own minds.

Christmas isn't about religion for most people in this country, me included. He's being an arse and very very unfair on your children

He's being unfair to your children. He's choosing to not celebrate Christmas because he associates it with religion. You are entitled to make your own choice about Christmas ... and so do your children going forward. If he can't cope, perhaps he should excuse himself on the day.

Christmas can be about all religions and none. I know of Jewish and Hindu families who put up a Christmas tree and have a family gathering on the 25th Dec.

I'm atheist too but I certainly see the value in family relationships and societal cohesion and I can see Christmas plays a role in furthering these. I'll be joining my neighbours this Christmas on our village lantern walk - there'll be some very poor quality singing of carols, excited children and neighbours sharing a glass or 2 of mulled wine. Great fun for all.

By not allowing his children to mark Christmas he is cutting them off from Society, in just the same way as JW cut themselves off from mainstream society. He's also being naïve to think that he can both raise and insist the children are atheists. State schools in England are required to follow a Christian ethos, and to teach about the other major Worlds religions and belief systems. So in a year or 2's time your DD will be having classes in these areas, unless he wants to pull her out of these sessions which I think would be a real shame and actually stigmatising for her.

If your DH trauma is so embedded in his psyche, maybe he needs to consider counselling of the type for those leaving cults. What a sad life to look forward to if he becomes depressed every December and is still cut off from the social side of Christmas time.

I think you're right to insist the children go to spend Christmas day with your family. Maybe you could persuade him to celebrate the New Year as a family. Families need events to bring them together - what does he propose to fill the gap of Christmas ? I also think you need to have a very serious talk about how you are going to handle religious education in school. For what it's worth - every school goes heavy on Christmas. I live in one of the most diverse towns in the UK, and all the schools have Christmas trees and normally have Christmas shows too. They also mark Eid, Diwali and the Jewish festivals too, so as an atheist he needs to be aware of this. Religious festivals are not just about God; they are about the family and society as a whole.

I am sorry for his suffering and for the problems that this has led to.
However he cannot simply pass this to the next generation of people he loves.

He suffered because those around him celebrated Christmas when he could not.

He is making his children suffer because they see people around them celebrating Christmas when they cannot...

Why would he want to pass on this separation from local culture and deep unhappiness in Dec each year?

Same as RJnomore1, I was brought up as JW when my mother married my step father when I was 5 and i made the stupid mistake of marrying young into it. Yes, I was psychologically and emotionally affected and damaged by it. Please do not do that to your children. It is nothing to do with religion but being made to stand out as so different to everybody else at school, not being allowed friends outside of the religion or being able to join in a lot of 'normal' activities such as Christmas that turned me from a confident little girl at 4 into a very self conscious child with low self esteem and severely damaged my potential as an adult.

I’m with you all the way on this OP but just to say your comment about complaining to school was ridiculous. It’s lovely for them to experience the Christmas joy at school at least, so it would be so sad to complain to take that away from your daughter.

But yeah you need to put your foot down here. He’s being a twat.

He needs therapy. Regular, long term therapy. He’s going to ruin your dc lives. Why can’t Christmas be about spending time with family?

How else does this past affect him in his relationships and behaviours?

Christmas is secular to most people.

Having said that, I grew up without Christmas and it never bothered me. All my friends celebrated it but it wasn't a big deal for me that we didn't. I enjoyed the school stuff then just chilled at home

MatildaIThink

Christmas has nothing to do with religion for the majority who celebrate it, most people have grown out of religion and enjoy Christmas for thr Focus on friends, family and children having fun.

This ^

Gosh, he sounds fucking awful. I appreciate he had childhood traumas, and I feel for him because it does sound pretty terrible, but he’s passing that trauma and feeling of being on the outside down to his children now, and that’s pretty inexcusable in this instance imo. I would think the absolute last thing he’d want is for his poor children to feel the same way he does. Can’t understand how you’ve gone along with this for so long but I do agree that the best plan moving forward would be to spend Christmas with your family.

@Legoisthebest

Yes take away the religious part of it. Celebrate 'Winter Solstice' instead. A lot of Christmas traditions aren't actually connected to Christianity. Giving and receiving presents, decorating your home, having a fancy meal of foods you don't normally eat - none of that is especially Christian. The 'magic' of taking your children to see the town centre full of bright lights and a decorated tree, eating a German hot dog and having a hot chocolate, even seeing some reindeer...none of that is religious. It's seasonal. It's winter - we brighten the darkness with lights and eat/drink cosy food. It will be hard to have the children avoid some of the more traditional parts in school - nativity, carols etc but schools do tend to be more 'neutral' about these things because they know so many families don't celebrate Christmas as a religious festival. Talk to your husband about what parts of Christmas you want your children to experience and I expect most of it is unrelated to the actual Christmas Story.

Good post (and I am a Christian)

But suggest he gets some counselling too. You are likely to find other things crop up along the way from his childhood trauma, becoming a parent often brings these things to the surface.

Whilst your Husband has been through sounds terrible and damaging (he sounds like he really needs professional help!) it is not fair he is doing this to you and your children. Does he want them to grow up hating Christmas too after Missing out their whole life??

Christmas doesn't have to be religious. In text for most people it's not.

You mentioned complaining to the school? Don't. How would they know who celebrates Christmas and who doesn't because they vast majority of people do. It's not even about religion for most families! It doesn't even have to be traditional for them! It's not fair on your kids op.

Deal breaker for me. Making your kids miss out and feel odd ones out at school because you were miserable is a trait I cannot get on board with. Decorate, put a tree up, buy presents and cook a turkey. Stuff him, time to deal with it already not bury his head in the sand.

It sounds as though he needs to consider counselling regarding his childhood and the things he missed out on due to the religion. Does he want to replicate similar with his children?