To think DH is selfish denying the DC Christmas?

[ohganggang]

Been together 7 years, married for 5. We have a 4 year old DD, a 2 year old DS and I'm pregnant with out 3rd. DH was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they do not celebrate Christmas as they believe it is satanic. The religion has a shunning policy and DH got shunned by his family and friends when it came out he was in a relationship with a non-JW (me) at the start of our relationship as that is forbidden. He is essentially dead to his mum, dad and siblings.

DH had stopped believing in the religion long before I came on the scene and was just keeping up pretenses for his family until he got found out. He is now as atheist as they come. He has a lot of religious trauma from his childhood, from growing up believing the world was about to end, watching the kids at his school celebrating Christmas and 'knowing' they were going to be killed in Armageddon for it (they teach that God will kill literally everybody who isn't a JW, no exceptions), being taught that the world is run by Satan etc etc. He lived his childhood in perpetual fear. I have advised him to seek counselling and he won't.

He now rejects anything to do with religion, and can't be doing with Christmas. He actually gets depressed every year around the Christmas season and says it's because it brings up the trauma of his childhood. Because of this, we've never bothered with Christmas together. For the first couple of years of the relationship before living together, marriage and DC I'd just go to my family on Christmas Day as usual. Christmas 2017 after DD was born, we stayed home and did nothing and it was the first year I didn't do anything for Christmas. Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on. He also wants the kids to be completely atheist and have nothing to do with religion. I accepted that.

But DD is now 4, and in pre-school, and the pre-school is making a huge deal out of Christmas coming up soon. I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine but we're in a small town with not much cultural diversity so I think they've assumed all of the kids will be celebrating at home. They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread. Naturally, the talk of a Christmas nativity, the kids being hyped up about an upcoming Christmas 'party' and general encouragement for the kids to talk about Christmas among themselves, has resulted in DD getting excited for Christmas.

I have told DH today that I don't think it's fair on the kids and that I don't think it's right to project his trauma on to the kids. To me it seems like a case of "I didn't get to have Christmas so why should my kids?". I do understand his trauma though. I tried to compromise saying we don't have to decorate the house but I am doing presents for the kids and me and the kids will go to my parents on the day to celebrate and he can stay at home. He says no, that he isn't comfortable with his kids having "that religious bullshit in their lives". I'm really annoyed with him.

@ohganggang

He's gotten, much, much worse with it since having children though admittedly was always anti-Christmas. I have Muslim friends with kids who don't do Christmas and I always assumed it wouldn't be that much of a problem and yes now my opinion is changing. I admit that.

My muslim friends go watch christmas plays at school and their kids do the normal xmas stuff. Christmas is a major cultural event. Very few people bother about the religious bit. I think its a shame to deny british kids to celebrate a bit. Weird really.

It sounds like hes unilateraly decided this. Its unreasonable. Hes not the boss of you

It’s not fair for your DH to behave like this. His childhood sounds traumatic - he needs to seek counselling to address this and not put his children through a similar experience. Christmas doesn’t have to be religious. Enjoy your children’s excitement OP. Don’t let your DH ruin it.

He needs therapy. I understand why he’s avoidant, it’s easier for him, but he’s a parent now and he has a responsibility to his children to deal with stuff that’s going to impact on their whole childhood too.

If Christmas makes him feel like this trying to get him to celebrate the pagan festival of winter solstice will be exactly the same.

The underlying issues need addressed and he’s the only one who can do that.

Christmas can be secular, it is literally just a mash up of different traditions (mainly pagan) to help convert people to Christianity.

It’s incredibly easy to just make it about family and sharing gifts with loved ones because you cherish them.

I’m an atheist, I adore Christmas but I didn’t grow up in a religious household, we’ve always been relaxed and open about these things, he really should seek help and support for his trauma so he can move past it, childhood trauma is a heavy burden to carry and it’s not fair how it can impact negatively on your family.

@DismantledKing

He’s fucking cruel, and you’re complicit for putting up with it to the extent that you have.

This. You knew exactly what he was about so much that you spent the first few years apart. What did you really think was going to happen op when you decided to have 3 kids? You both are responsible for this situation. I'm not sure what you can actually do, other than leave him.

DH and I both carry baggage from our own families, and events in childhood. And together we've made a huge effort to ensure that our own DC don't ever endure a moment like we had to at times.

I appreciate that he had a complicated upbringing, but he doesn't get to inflict misery onto his own DC as a result. It doesn't balance the scales, and it's pretty shocking that you've allowed this to happen for the last 4 years. Step up here and protect your DC... what he's doing is cruel.

Surely he realises that Christmas traditions like present giving and feasting are pagan in origin?

I think the main issue here is not even about Christmas but the fact that he is in denial about how his childhood has affected his mental health and his refusal to do anything about it by accessing therapy. Why won't he have counselling? Do JW forbid counselling? I know that scientologists do. Or is it more of a macho "I'm fine" attitude?

I think it's really sad that he is having such a negative impact on your DCs experience of Christmas due to his own mental health issues but he won't recognise that.

I am actually a Christian but totally recognise that people can celebrate and enjoy Christmas without incorporating any elements of the Christian faith into it. It's actually really easy these days to celebrate "Christmas" without the "Christ" - as most people in the UK do. And I have no judgment about that. People are free to take whatever joy and happiness they can from other faiths even if they disbelieve the underlying tenets of those faiths.

Conversely, I absolutely HATE New Year as I grew up in an atmosphere of DV that inevitably escalated on NYE. I do honestly struggle on NYE as every single memory from my childhood up to the age of around 22 involved my Dad being abusive and aggressive. It is very hard to detach my feeling about NYE from my memories of my childhood. But I have worked through them in counselling and even though I still really don't like NYE I have created new traditions for my DC on NYE that are different from my childhood and I don't inflict my personal trauma on them.

Is he open to discussion about your feeling around this or not? I think that will tell volumes.

Just adding to the chorus that my family aren't particularly Xtian but we do the whole Xmas thing of presents, food and drink, being together etc.

I am a Satanist @ohganggang but I still do the 'Christmas' thing. If it's anything then it's a festival to make the dark part of the year nicer, and to celebrate that we're 'over the hump' of the darkest night and are on the up.

He sounds a bit of a twat. Even if it's rooted in trauma/fear, he's still a twat because he's not doing anything about his many issues and it's having an effect on his wife and children.

It's not even Xmas, I'm sure his issues also have some effect one way or another at other times, too.

I think that your DH needs to address how he feels about his childhood, his family and the impact that religion had on it. He lost the chance to celebrate Christmas as a child and being cut off by his family must be an ongoing source of pain. It’s not surprising that it’s still having such an impact on his life.

Seeing children celebrate Christmas is really magical. Watching them join in decorating the tree, their joy at seeing their stocking has filled up with gifts overnight, trying to pull crackers, being various animals (that the bible skipped) in nativity plays - it’s a lovely part of being a parent. Your DP has missed out on a lot as a child and is still missing out now, not having a supportive (extended) family around him. It would be awful if he missed out on the joy of watching his children have Christmas.

We don't celebrate Christmas. Muslim household. Kids don't feel like they are missing out. They are school age and have never been upset. We let them join in at school and do the nativities and activities etc. But we have our own holidays where they get gifts. We might not do extravagant piles of presents but they get their birthdays and 2 ends which adds up to Christmas and Easter. They get gifts, and lots of nice food and visits. So essentially a non religious Christmas but a different time of year. We wish others a merry Christmas and have often helped those celebrating on Christmas day when needed. Etc. It doesn't need to be about religion and isn't for most people.

His argument doesn't make sense. And he hasn't taken your childhood of having Christmas in to consideration. What do you normally do Xmas day? We have a family day of rubbish to and a good meal

he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on and he can't see he is doing a similar thing to his kids?

We aren't religious at all but we celebrate Christmas. I would take my kids to my parents for Christmas and let him sit at home not doing anything.

He also needs to get some counselling on his past an how to deal with it and move forward.

Christmas aside, the deal breaker is not getting help for dealing with his trauma. You have three children with this extremely damaged man. He and you are going to need help.

I think you should take christmas into your own hands. Surely having a miserable time as a child is all the more reason for wanting your own children to be happy? Sub consciously, he must still believe

@me4real

Just adding to the chorus that my family aren't particularly Xtian but we do the whole Xmas thing of presents, food and drink, being together etc.

I am a Satanist @ohganggang but I still do the 'Christmas' thing. If it's anything then it's a festival to make the dark part of the year nicer, and to celebrate that we're 'over the hump' of the darkest night and are on the up.

He sounds a bit of a twat. Even if it's rooted in trauma/fear, he's still a twat because he's not doing anything about his many issues and it's having an effect on his wife and children.

It's not even Xmas, I'm sure his issues also have some effect one way or another at other times, too.

This must be the first thread ever that has united the atheists, Christians, and now Satanists into speaking with one voice.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

Given that Christmas existed (under another name) before Christianty/other religions formed, surely it can be enjoyed for what it is - a celebration of joy and love in the depths of midwinter.

Exactly this! Most “Christmas” traditions eg decorating trees, gift giving, sharing a special meal with family all predate Christianity so there’s nothing inherently religious about them.

-'not even just Xmas'

I get that he has trauma but if he is unwilling to work in it and move forward then he can’t expect you and the children to give this up.

I would put up a tree, buy presents and crackers and tell him if he doesn’t want to be involved he should find himself a good long hike to take himself on in Christmas Day so he can leave you to it in peace.

I'm 100% totally atheist, as are my parents. We celebrate Christmas as a special time for family, it's my favourite time of the year and we've always gone all out. The religious part has always been irrelevant. Maybe that's something your husband could try to bear in mind, just focussing on enjoying his family - tbh I'm not sure most people in the UK really think primarily of it as a religious holiday these days.

My parents and grandparents were the most devout atheists you could ever imagine. But we still had Christmas. Nothing remotely holy about it, but we had a tree and decorations and presents.

Your DH just has to suck it up I’m afraid. That’s how it is when you have kids - you have to put them first.

Your DH is being very selfish, he’s punishing your DCs because of his own demons. Not only that he’s also pushing his believes on you. I’m assuming you celebrated Christmas before knowing him given you went to your family for Christmas before having DCs.

I think your being ridiculous about nursery too. Once your DCs go to school they will be involved in Christmas festivities there too. My DDs go to a non faith school with lots of different religions and the whole school is decorated, they have Santa visiting tomorrow and gifts for all. Usually they have a big party too. On top of days of making Christmas crafts.

So he had no Christmases, suffered from it and now is putting his kids through the same. Tell him to cop on or go away for a few days so you can have a nice Christmas with your kids.

Has he thought that its not too late for him to have christmas? Not the religion but being together with a family who love him and who he loves, sharing that love by giving gifts and doing lovely things together? My dad was an orphan. He used to LOVE christmas because it gave him the chance to have and share the stuff he couldn't have as a kid....and his childhood was ROUGH.

He's also cutting off his own nose to spite his face @ohganggang , or at least sabotaging his own happiness.

Xmas with your DC and others could be his chance to enjoy Xmas and somewhat make up for missing out on it first time round.