To think DH is selfish denying the DC Christmas?

[ohganggang]

Been together 7 years, married for 5. We have a 4 year old DD, a 2 year old DS and I'm pregnant with out 3rd. DH was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they do not celebrate Christmas as they believe it is satanic. The religion has a shunning policy and DH got shunned by his family and friends when it came out he was in a relationship with a non-JW (me) at the start of our relationship as that is forbidden. He is essentially dead to his mum, dad and siblings.

DH had stopped believing in the religion long before I came on the scene and was just keeping up pretenses for his family until he got found out. He is now as atheist as they come. He has a lot of religious trauma from his childhood, from growing up believing the world was about to end, watching the kids at his school celebrating Christmas and 'knowing' they were going to be killed in Armageddon for it (they teach that God will kill literally everybody who isn't a JW, no exceptions), being taught that the world is run by Satan etc etc. He lived his childhood in perpetual fear. I have advised him to seek counselling and he won't.

He now rejects anything to do with religion, and can't be doing with Christmas. He actually gets depressed every year around the Christmas season and says it's because it brings up the trauma of his childhood. Because of this, we've never bothered with Christmas together. For the first couple of years of the relationship before living together, marriage and DC I'd just go to my family on Christmas Day as usual. Christmas 2017 after DD was born, we stayed home and did nothing and it was the first year I didn't do anything for Christmas. Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on. He also wants the kids to be completely atheist and have nothing to do with religion. I accepted that.

But DD is now 4, and in pre-school, and the pre-school is making a huge deal out of Christmas coming up soon. I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine but we're in a small town with not much cultural diversity so I think they've assumed all of the kids will be celebrating at home. They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread. Naturally, the talk of a Christmas nativity, the kids being hyped up about an upcoming Christmas 'party' and general encouragement for the kids to talk about Christmas among themselves, has resulted in DD getting excited for Christmas.

I have told DH today that I don't think it's fair on the kids and that I don't think it's right to project his trauma on to the kids. To me it seems like a case of "I didn't get to have Christmas so why should my kids?". I do understand his trauma though. I tried to compromise saying we don't have to decorate the house but I am doing presents for the kids and me and the kids will go to my parents on the day to celebrate and he can stay at home. He says no, that he isn't comfortable with his kids having "that religious bullshit in their lives". I'm really annoyed with him.

@PeacheyPeach

JW are not a cult. Following the Bible's guidance and standards does not make them a cult. There is nothing extremest about them. You don't need to feel sorry for the children who are being brought up in happy families, most will have lovely settled lives being brought up to be decent honest hard-working humans . Yes there will be cases of people with bad experiences that is usually because of the actual family/parents, this is very sad. How many people are walking around having had toxic upbringings ( who haven't been brought up as Jws) this is a fact of life and it's awful, this is the parents fault, Having a positive hope for the future is actually a nice thing to have, it helps to keep you grounded when the world is in such a mess.

So, Jesus is coming back when? Armageddon is when?

Are you sure about the dates this time?

And are you one of the 144,000 going to Heaven?

There is nothing extremest about them

@PeacheyPeach That's not what a lot of survivors say. A lot of the stuff like having to constantly try and recruit can be damaging. Shunning is a hallmark of a cult. There was also some sexual abuse by elders in the group, which was covered up. Asking extreme things of people like them not being allowed to have some necessary medical procedures etc.

Although I must say, if you look at the literature, JWs don't believe god will kill non believers, they do get a chance of redemption at the end apparently! Although I can imagine a few hardcore members not being accepting of that view!

@ShittyGlitter Some people get another chance to repent, but others go to hell if god thinks they are uunworthy (buut that's true of most Xtianity.)

@PeacheyPeach

JW are not a cult. Following the Bible's guidance and standards does not make them a cult. There is nothing extremest about them. You don't need to feel sorry for the children who are being brought up in happy families, most will have lovely settled lives being brought up to be decent honest hard-working humans . Yes there will be cases of people with bad experiences that is usually because of the actual family/parents, this is very sad. How many people are walking around having had toxic upbringings ( who haven't been brought up as Jws) this is a fact of life and it's awful, this is the parents fault, Having a positive hope for the future is actually a nice thing to have, it helps to keep you grounded when the world is in such a mess.

How does the Bible guide anyone into believing that celebrating Christmas will result in them burning in hell????? Please enlighten me

Whenever a thread portraying a negative view of JWs appears, hey presto posters who speak of how wonderful it all is will appear.

I’m another who survived a semi-JW upbringing. My mother converted when I was about 9 and Christmas stopped from that day forth for several years - my dad is disabled so couldn’t organise a proper Christmas alone, when my brother and I were teenagers we were able to bring some of the traditions back but mum never joined in and looked on disapprovingly.

I remember that feeling of dread as my mum told me all about Armageddon and that we needed to be ready to go “any day” - I was young, if your parent tells you something of course you will believe every word. She’d read Bible texts and JW literature to me behind my dad’s back, I didn’t know any better then but now I see how deceptive it was and while I still love my mum I have no respect for her.

I was pretty “meh” about Christmas for years but now I have kids of my own and I see how excited they are around Christmas and all I can think is “how dare she take that joy from me and my brother”?

I have sympathy for your DH @ohganggang but he needs to get into trauma therapy now, he cannot allow the abuse cycle to continue through your children. If he refuses to engage then you need to make a serious decision about who you are going to out first, him or your children.

No one goes to hell

They are very clear in their latest literature baptism as a JW is what let’s you survive Armageddon. They are preparing for a genocide of 8 billion people by their loving god. They have instructed their believers to have a bag ready to go when the persecurion starts aand they have to run and have told them to follow exactly the instructions of their governing body when given even if this seems to be - forgive me forgetting the exact words but against common sense and damaging.

This is all from their own literature and videos.

There was also more than”some” sexual abuse covered up. Check the UK enquiry or the Australian royal commission.

Of course give the kids Christmas!

It's a cultural thing now, not a religious one for most people

This sounds horrendous OP. But when all is said and done, you have to cut the cycle. You CANNOT allow him to abuse his own children (which is essentially what he would be doing).

Your children will grow up to think you are both lunatics. They will wonder why you never stood up for them. They may think you are as toxic as you think his mother is right now.

I would put it to him in these stark terms. Yes, he may well fall to pieces before he gets counselling - but so be it, if that’s what it takes. You have pandered to this nonsense for long enough. It is utter nonsense and you have to take a stand now, for the sake if your children.

I wish you the best of luck.

I guess the most tolerant approach you can take is say that you are taking the dc to your parents, you will have presents and food but won’t show any of it i your house, and they will have an amazing day there. Then he has about 10 months to get help before you start to prepare for next Christmas happening in your home too, and that’s not negotiable.
That’s the most understanding approach I can think of, as I couldn’t continue with this depriving my children any longer. You see how he is now, you don’t want any part of introducing that into your children’s childhood.

I think when you become a parent you have to put a lot of your own stuff to one side, your kids are your priority.
Yes, he had a difficult childhood but surely this is even more reason for his children to have a happy, carefree and guilt free childhood? Their happiness and wellbeing trumps him being a tad self indulgent now he’s an adult and can process what his parents put him through.

You can discuss or point out to the nursery that your family does Christmas differently but please don’t make it a complaint. All good schools , nurseries, playgroups etc.. really try all year round to include all children while respecting different practices in aspects such as diet, toileting, celebrating and so on.

@ohganggang

Oh I will add as well that he is the same with Easter but we do still get the DC chocolate treats just nothing bunny or egg shaped.

But eggs and bunny's have nothing to do with the easter story???

Even JWs have a celebration of Jesus death though.

But eggs and bunny's have nothing to do with the easter story???

@CombatBarbie Ah but presumably he missed out on the eggs and bunnies, so they're not allowed to have them. It sounds kind of narcissistic really.

dump him

The eggs we were told were a pagan fertility symbol so he obviously still believes a lot of it or at least subconsciously can't shake it off........... I still have a slight pang of guilt eating a Cadbury cream egg 😋😂and I've not been near for more than 20 years. You see it really is brainwashing but you don't realise it til you have been left quite a while. A lot, especially men for some reason (my ex did...... note ex) , seem to go down the route of obsessively researching like Op's DH and all that does is fuel the bitterness. He is obviously still holding on to the belief that the man is head of the household and what he says goes also!

Most people I know are completely non religious and Christmas is Christmas and not a religious occasion at all which may be a bit sad for some people but it's such a great time of year for children and they will definitely miss out if they don't get to celebrate it like their friends. Therefore your husband can enjoy it for what it is without any religion involved whatsoever he is being selfish depriving your children and needs to be TOLD he can re invent Christmas for himself and family and it can from now on be a cheery happy time if he can't see that and make compromises I would be questioning whether I wanted to be with him or not.

I’m going to be blunt, you really didn’t think Christmas through when you went along with your H’s wishes. Things change and I would not sign up for raising my children a particular, especially when I don’t agree, way just to pander to my H’s unwilling to try to work through his childhood trauma.

I am an atheist but raised a ‘church twice on Sunday’ Christian. I chose to raise DD as openly as I could because my atheism is my personal choice. Your H appears to have failed to realise that he’s imposing another belief system on his children just as his parents did with him.

OP, your willingness to accommodate your H’s beliefs are beginning to look like just being a doormat. These are your children too!

By not celebrating Christmas are you not just passing this trauma onto your children? No to the same aggressive level but still trauma.

You mentioned you thought that it would be ok as your friends that are Muslim don't celebrate Christmas but they have eid and other special times of the year.

Get him to get help and the kids a sticking xx

I think a lot of people, understandably, don’t realise quite how strict JWs are about avoiding all connections to other religions.

It’s seen as not being faithful to God, even things like school trips to a mosque/temple. My mum had a meltdown (sobbing, not shouting/screaming) when I told her I was getting married in a church. She begged me to change my mind, came up with a list of reasons why I shouldn’t and then said she wasn’t sure she could come. In the end she did, but she refused to join in the service in any way (no singing hymns, etc).

Christmas AND Easter are big no-nos as they see them as entirely pagan. They do acknowledge the death of Jesus in their own way (they call it The Memorial) but I definitely wouldn’t describe the services I was dragged to as a child as a celebration!

I'd actually leave over something like this, instead of seeking help to address his childhood he's content for his entire family to base their lives around his trauma; and no doubt in the process harm your children. It's not even about Christmas itself but the principle.

he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on

So he realises he missed out on this childhood joy and it really affected him, but yet wants his children to miss out on this childhood joy too?!

If you decide to celebrate it with the children, he should respect that. You're allowed to do different things and have different opinions.

If he acknowledges he has trauma, but doesn't seem professional help then that isn't your fault and you don't need to bow to his every request.

Buy a cheap prelit tree in the sales for next year so he knows that next year the house will have a tree. Your little one will love decorating it I'm sure and there's nothing religious about it

Could he not just accept it as a celebration of the fact that we're past the halfway mark of dreary winter and looking forward to spring?

Solstice celebrations are common to all sorts of cultures and for those of us who hate the short, dark days it really marks a turning point and something to look forward to.

I agree he needs therapy though. It's things like this that make me feel religion often does more harm than good.

He sounds deeply unpleasant and to be honest, abusive. He clearly has no regard for anyone else's beliefs/wishes which is something I have often found with people who are/have been JW.

He doesn't want his children to have anything to do with religion- that's fine in itself, but what if those children eventually want to have a faith? Will that not be acceptable? My dad was brought up catholic but has had nothing to do with the religion for over 40 years. He considers himself atheist which we, as a family, respect. Equally, he respects that my mum and I are C of E and keep faith in a small way. He still enjoys Christmas!

If he doesn't wish to partake in Christmas that's fine buy why does he get to decide that you and your children can't?!

I am normally of the opinion that marriages are something to be worked on but, in all honesty, I would be ending this relationship ASAP.

JW is not a cult. even if by your definition it isn’t a cult, any religion which believes that children should be allowed to die rather than be given vital medical procedures because they made up some rule which doesn’t actually exist in the real world is fucked up.

Oh but wait. They don’t have to let their children die do they? Because the courts take over and the children get their medical procedures anyway. Nice cop-out then.

Personally I think that anyone who denies their children a blood transfusion or whatever should be criminally prosecuted and the children removed into care. It’s better than being a part of that toxic environment.

Amen.