To think DH is selfish denying the DC Christmas?

[ohganggang]

Been together 7 years, married for 5. We have a 4 year old DD, a 2 year old DS and I'm pregnant with out 3rd. DH was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they do not celebrate Christmas as they believe it is satanic. The religion has a shunning policy and DH got shunned by his family and friends when it came out he was in a relationship with a non-JW (me) at the start of our relationship as that is forbidden. He is essentially dead to his mum, dad and siblings.

DH had stopped believing in the religion long before I came on the scene and was just keeping up pretenses for his family until he got found out. He is now as atheist as they come. He has a lot of religious trauma from his childhood, from growing up believing the world was about to end, watching the kids at his school celebrating Christmas and 'knowing' they were going to be killed in Armageddon for it (they teach that God will kill literally everybody who isn't a JW, no exceptions), being taught that the world is run by Satan etc etc. He lived his childhood in perpetual fear. I have advised him to seek counselling and he won't.

He now rejects anything to do with religion, and can't be doing with Christmas. He actually gets depressed every year around the Christmas season and says it's because it brings up the trauma of his childhood. Because of this, we've never bothered with Christmas together. For the first couple of years of the relationship before living together, marriage and DC I'd just go to my family on Christmas Day as usual. Christmas 2017 after DD was born, we stayed home and did nothing and it was the first year I didn't do anything for Christmas. Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on. He also wants the kids to be completely atheist and have nothing to do with religion. I accepted that.

But DD is now 4, and in pre-school, and the pre-school is making a huge deal out of Christmas coming up soon. I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine but we're in a small town with not much cultural diversity so I think they've assumed all of the kids will be celebrating at home. They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread. Naturally, the talk of a Christmas nativity, the kids being hyped up about an upcoming Christmas 'party' and general encouragement for the kids to talk about Christmas among themselves, has resulted in DD getting excited for Christmas.

I have told DH today that I don't think it's fair on the kids and that I don't think it's right to project his trauma on to the kids. To me it seems like a case of "I didn't get to have Christmas so why should my kids?". I do understand his trauma though. I tried to compromise saying we don't have to decorate the house but I am doing presents for the kids and me and the kids will go to my parents on the day to celebrate and he can stay at home. He says no, that he isn't comfortable with his kids having "that religious bullshit in their lives". I'm really annoyed with him.

Coming from a male perspective, it sounds a little as though all he’s going to do with that attitude, is perpetuate the same trauma he has on his kids- imagine growing up being told you’re not allowed to celebrate Christmas because your dad wasn’t allowed to- that’s a toxic relationship just waiting to happen right there. Tell him to stop being such a silly twat and to do it for the kids!

I think it's pretty obvious what needs to happen, if he can't cope with Christmas than he needs to leave and stay in a premier inn or somewhere else for a few days. So he leaves Christmas eve morning and you put the tree up and decorate, Christmas day you have presents and Christmas dinner, visit your family, Boxing day you chill out and then later in the day take everything down and he comes home.

If he doesn't want to be part of it then that is his choice, but he needs to be the one that leaves, not you and the kids.

We do Christmas without religion (all atheist here). It's our mid-winter family festival. We love the tree and lights, we delight in choosing presents for each other. We have a special meal, Xmas crackers. We wear silly jumpers and put Christmas songs on. There was a mid-winter celebration long before it became a Christian festival. I have Hindu friends who still celebrate all these aspects of Christmas with their kids.

Huh? How is that a distinctly 'male' perspective, or any different from the 300 previous comments saying the same thing @SkiAlexander ?

Particular perspectives can be very relevant, because they're particular - like those from fellow former JWs here. I don't get what's 'male' about your comment though, the relevance of your being so. Is there a particular relevance?

@ohganggang

Oh I will add as well that he is the same with Easter but we do still get the DC chocolate treats just nothing bunny or egg shaped.

The egg shape at Easter, is nothing to do with the religion behind Easter, it's associated with all the new wildlife that's born in the spring! So he needs to educate himself a little bit more there!

He needs to do something - therapy - whatever to process his trauma

Urgently, before he damages his own children

@ThrobbingToothacheOfTheMind What are you fucking on about?

Are you unable to read what that poster wrote? She/he is bang on. Christmas IS a religious festival - like it or not.

Christmas predates christianity. Look up ´saturnalia’. Most of the non-obviously religious bits of Christmas aren’t Christian at all or are only very loosely connected. Christmas trees with lights, giving presents, Father Christmas, having a big feast, seeing family. Can you call it your ´mid-winter festival?’

They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread.

You are being very unreasonable here. Your post is all about your DH being selfish denying the DC a Christmas and you wanting to celebrate Christmas with the children yet you are thinking about raising a complaint to the pre-school and therefore potentially denying all of the children the Christmas fun?
I've taught in several schools including in areas with very diverse backgrounds and children of many different religions or none. Christmas was always celebrated with parties, discos, food, santa etcetc. In the catholic schools we always had a nativity play. The non-catholic schools had musicals with a Christmassy theme, not necessarily a nativity, but sometimes it was.
The vast majority of children participated in everything - sometimes a few children were removed from religious aspects of it but the school always put on alternative activities for the few who were not participating in those things.
Christmas is celebrated in schools and not necessarily as a religious festival.
There are millions of people in the UK who celebrate Christmas but not because of the religious aspect. You don't have to bring Jesus into it at all.

I think you should tell him that the children are going to celebrate Christmas and that it is non-negotiable. You won't be celebrating it as a religious festival but as a mid-winter festival with lights, decorations, food and giving and receiving and most importantly spending time with loved ones.
If he still refuses can you go to your parents for 2 or 3 days over Christmas and celebrate there. He can stay at home.

whyyou agreed to it in the first place is beyond me

hes not a good dad hes traumatising his kids bvecause he wont get help

i was raised jewish not strict but we still celebrated a form of christmas

Celebrate the non religious festival.

Make it about the food, the midwinter christmas tree, songs that are non religious

Christmas is just a mid winter festival of lights and giving in our house.

All raised devout Christians, all chose atheism after being given the choice to express ourselves freely.

In our house father Christmas is "real" in the sense that he's the personification of the spirit of Christmas giving. He isn't a real person, but his story is real to those who believe.

Jesus hasn't got anything to do with it, frankly.

And your husband doesn't get to determine what you or your kids celebrate. That's controlling and abusive.

I agree its selfish... because he didnt have joy his kids cant? grow the fuck up you are suppose to want better for you children.

I agree with making it non religious if thats the issue... plenty of things are non religious.

Christmas eve box is a world war 2 tradition because food/sweets/toys where low supply/rationed but paper for books was easily available and reading encouraged, combined with essentials like nightwear and toothbrushes it made a whole package for kids.

Elf on the shelf - I personally have never done it and don't understand it but I don't believe its religious

Gonks - not religeous

Santa Claus (random fact - named after a place he was invented not because of a Saint)/Father Christmas/Grandfather Frost - also originated between world war 1 and 2 as a magical mythical character and is different from the real person of St. Nick so not actually religious.

The Grinch - not religious

Christmas dinner - not religious

lots of December events like Pantomine and Ice Skating - not religious

Christmas jumpers - not religious

Foods/Drink like roast chestnuts and hot chocolate - not religious

so many more things too... you can completely ditch religion and still have Xmas - the only things that would obviously be ditched is removing religeon is advent, stockings, mass and nativity really.

Tbh I think your husband needs to get a grip! he is happy to celebrate birthdays and Easter ( JW do not celebrate these either) but not Christmas, so he is pick and choosing what he can and can't do!
He has chosen to not be a JW anymore so why does he actively seek out the website and ex Jws? What has he got to gain from it other than feed on his bitterness, how can that help him? He is doing what he wants in life with a lovely wife and family so why is he so bothered about what is being taught now, what actually has it got to do with him?
You will find most Jws will be spending the holidays just enjoying the break, being with their families and probably eating a whole load of nice food . Their kids certainly are not worrying about if their school friends are going to die or that the world is going to burn.
It's very sad that your DH had had such extreme parents who failed him basically. A parents role is to make your child feel happy and secure,. Not frightened or to feel like an outsider,
people have been quite offensive on here regarding JW beliefs, I'm sure they wouldn't be so rude about other religions who also don't celebrate Christmas,

We have a similar situation in that my husband was brought up Mormon and in now rejecting that part of his upbringing he has also rejected other things which can bring a lot of joy to family life, and which hold happy memories from my childhood.

My DH sounds similarly 'all or nothing' in his thinking. Everything is either completely bad or completely good with no room for grey areas or compromise. I think this may have also been a symptom of his religious upbringing - you are either in or out of his family's church - you can't pick and choose. This way of addressing the challenges of life has made him feel safe for a long time.

Over time I have also come to understand that there is a wider complicated web of trauma linked to his mormon background - his parents are divorced and only one is mormon, this parent also had mental and physical health issues, trauma from her own childhood (some passed on from her mother's traumatic childhood) and the family had big financial issues - it was all linked together.

To start with my response to his not wanting to be involved was to have a big row which just made him more entrenched in his position! Then later I'd say 'that's fine' - no need to argue about it - you are free to do your thing and have a 'me day' and I will go and do my thing with the children - see you afterwards. You are always welcome to join us if you feel like it. He pretty soon realised that he was missing out and started to come round to the idea of being involved.

As a result we have had to invent a lot of things from scratch for our family - creating new traditions that fit us. For example, we don't have 'family holidays' (holidays were also another area of trauma) we have 'family adventures' where everyone is involved in planning. DH still gets very stressed before we go on a trip and can completely kick off if I say the word 'holiday' - but over the years (this has required some patience) he is starting to understand how these things can be positive for our family and we now have some great holidays adventures.

I know if might be a bit late for this year, but might it be worth having a conversation with your DH about what he does want, rather than what he doesn't want? Also, let go of recreating your own childhood Christmas - other people's family Christmas's are always pretty weird and off-putting!

Maybe focus on simple things that are good for well being and it is hard to argue are linked to religion - choosing some delicious food together, having a family day-out treat (to a not Christmassy place), seeing some of your other favourite people (not necessarily family!), making some homemade winter decorations - choosing a 'tree' that suits your family - one year we decorated a big branch that we found in the park because being outside in nature is important to us and my DH didn't want to go on an Xmas tree shopping trip. Maybe even avoid the C-word altogether and go with the American 'holiday season'? Good luck

He's awful and IMO just as bad as his parents. You can have the fun of Christmas without being religious, plenty of people do. As for you thinking of raising a complaint to the preschool, you sound as bad. Your poor kids.

Sympathies living with a JW (even ex JW) .
In our interracial family there is a mix of beliefs ; RC, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, humanist ... and one JW.

Everybody accepts the boundaries and practices of everybody else, and will join in with family occasions or just discreetly step/ look away for the bits their religion frowns on)

... EXCEPT the JW. She is the ONLY person who relentlessly tries to impose her beliefs and practices and arguments on everybody else . Fine, she doesn't do birthdays and christmas so no presents /cards; nobody minds that. But she insists on coming to the family BD parties and Xmas celebrations so she can frown and argue , do a bit of missionary work and trot out the kind of specious personal justifications your DH does. She is completely egocentric with absolutely NO regard or respect for anyone else's POV.

@LittleMysSister

To be fair I don’t think it’s abusive to not celebrate Christmas?

I wasn’t talking about Christmas. His aversion to Christmas is a bi-product. I used the term abuse because he imposes his will otherwise sulks and makes op‘s life hell. And because he decides what is and isn’t allowed in the home (I also think op would ignore Easter / birthdays if that were his choice). And because he wants to deny his children because he was denied.

He has 2 to be 3 children. These are the formative years. How is he going to be and react when his children start to answer back? What else is he going to deny to his children?

He may not be purposely abusing. But he is by using silent treatment and manipulation, thus setting up the next generation to suffer from PTSD.

He’s not doing it differently from his mother. He’s trying to do the opposite. As someone upthread said, he is still in a cult. The cult of anti-JW. And op has said she’s broken trying to keep this all together.

Like other posters have said, your husband is effectively punishing his own children for his shit childhood.

My mother did the same. It was pure selfishness and jealousy, she couldn't stand the fact that we might have a happier, better time as children than she did.

Backfired on her in the end - my mother was always desperate for grandchildren - I have two brothers and none of us have had children of our own. She can't understand it, she has no ability to realise that our childhoods were hardly a positive influence to inspire us to do so!

As is so often posted on here, women are not rehab centres for broken men.

Lucky your children have two parents!

I can see how you understand him - and are sympathetic and sensitive of his needs. I hope that he can recover from the trauma.

However (as you can see above) not everyone who has suffered trauma feels the need to make their own children suffer it too. (Nor do they all feel envious of their children's happiness. This is him and it is not a good side.)

As CookSproutsInSoySauce says -you do know that: 'he is doing what his mother did but in a different form'.

It is hard for you - but you can't let this go - even if it seems better for him.

You are going to have to protect your children from his mother (and her icy influence) in this and probably other ways from here and on.

Perhaps tackling Christmas will lead to a changing of history for him and happiness/security for the children.

So OP, what are you going to do?

I may have a rather simplistic viewpoint but I think it's about time you put your child's needs first. After all isn't that what mother's do?

No- no relevance at all. I just thought it would be reassuring to know that everyone from across the panoply of identity thinks he’s acting like an idiot. That’s all.

What’s the relevance of asking?

A lot of aspects of the Western Christmas are pre Christian and some were borrowed by the early Church to give familiarity with the new faith (and also probably because they had the sense to realise people were not going to give them up)

I feel sympathy for what your husband has gone through, but unless this situation is addressed, it will get better rather than worse as your children grow. For this year I would be taking them to your family and afterwards having a serious conversation about him getting help to deal with his feelings and a way forward that works for all of you. Good parents want to shield their kids from the bad aspects of their own childhood but he seems happy to recreate them and that's not OK.

I am an ex JW so I can understand to a degree his viewpoint. I am now atheist and have strong negative feelings towards all religion an cults.
However, the minute I had kids I embraced all things xmas and birthdays an every other so called pagan celebration full on as I didn't want my kids to go through what I did. So I am surprised that your husband has made this choice if you have pointed this out to him. He is going to damage your kids as he has been damaged and they will end up resenting you both for nothing good.
Life is short. There is no after life so explain he should allow them to enjoy every fun thing life has to offer. Kids don't care about his principles or his upbringing that he is bitter about.
Let them have fun. Put your foot down

@GrannytoaUnicorn

Yeah, I didn’t notice any posts where a pp denied Christmas had ANYTHING to do with Christ. Just a lot of pp saying lots of non Christians still celebrate it without the religious aspect.