Page 15 | To think DH is selfish denying the DC Christmas?

user1471474462 · 17/12/2021 09:13

I was raised a Jehovah’s wittiness. Like any faith, there are those that are fairly relaxed, like my family, and those that use the faith as a weapon or excuse for awful parenting.

I never had any of the experience of my mum “packing a bag for Armageddon”, or being told I was better than anyone else. It was more, we need to help others come into the faith to help them, they were all quite humble and loving to be honest.

I think the problem that your husband may have is that he has awful parents.

My mum always acted with empathy around Christmas, so “we don’t celebrate it, which I know can be difficult, let’s plan something else nice instead”.

When I left I started celebrating Christmas, I’m still extremely close to my mum, I respect that she doesn’t celebrate Christmas, and she respects that I do.

Take religion out of it, he had an abusive childhood, he obviously needs help for it. If Christmas is so upsetting for him, I really wouldn’t force it. I would however make the compromise that he needs to get some help.

Your children will be fine until he is in a better headspace not celebrating Christmas, is not the end of the world, I say this as a child who didn’t. Their dad having better mental health is more important.

ShinyHappyPoster · 17/12/2021 09:17

You're blaming the JWs but this is all on your DH. He's made the decision not to deal with his trauma. He's made the decision that it's ok to celebrate his birthday but not Christmas (which is always a bigger deal for DCs than adults - so he's opting in to the celebration that benefits him and opting out of the one that benefits his DC).

Being raised a JW doesn't stop you from being an abusive arse. The actions of your DH aren't the actions of someone who thinks everyone is going to hell. They're the actions of someone who wants to exert petty and random control over his family's lives. You need to protect your DC.

ChangeChingyChange · 17/12/2021 09:20

@DismantledKing

He’s fucking cruel, and you’re complicit for putting up with it to the extent that you have.

This. Why are you bowing to him? He's still enforcing his JW views on you all! Can he not see that? Mostly these days Christmas sadly doesn't have a lot to do with religion so he's being ridiculous. YABU both of you!!

Overthinkingx3 · 17/12/2021 09:20

This !

MrsSkylerWhite · 17/12/2021 09:22

We’re not religious. Love Christmas.

user1471474462 · 17/12/2021 09:23

I don’t he’s being cruel and controlling, it’s obviously very upsetting for him and he has allot of trauma around Christmas.

If he was a terrible parent the rest of the year it would be different, but from what op has said he’s not.

Not celebrating Christmas is not a huge deal, but I would be asking him to get some help.

2Hot2Handle · 17/12/2021 09:23

It sounds like your DH needs to go to counselling. If I were you, I would think about how YOU want to raise the children. How YOU want to celebrate the holidays and how THEY would want to celebrate as part of the culture they’re growing up in. His needs and desires don’t trump yours or the DC’s.
His current behaviour doesn’t have to be shaped by his past experiences. While he can’t help triggers occurring, he can do something about how to deal with them.
You sound like you want to consider and protect him, but it’s okay for you to put your children’s needs first and ask him to do the same.
Rather than a “I didn’t have this, so I don’t want DC to have this either”, ask him to take a “I love my DC so much, I will do everything I can to ensure they don’t have the same childhood that I did” approach. That will lift him up.
The majority of the Christmas-celebrating countries rejected the religious aspect of this some time ago, so that’s not a reason to deprive your children of it.

LadyDanburysHat · 17/12/2021 09:24

@ikeepseeingit

He's not thinking rationally because of his trauma. He needs therapy for this, AND he needs to understand that for you it is a cultural holiday about family and love. For you, this is now non-negotiable, you have realised that you are not currently raising them the way you want to, you want them to have the joy and love of Christmas. He also doesn't get a say in whether they grow up to be atheists or not because he's not allowed to tell them what to believe, just as his mother doesn't get a say.

My Dad never liked religion. I used to ask him all the time about it and he would always tell me to make my own mind up, and that it doesn't matter if I do or don't believe in God. We celebrate Christmas every year together and his roasties are amazing.

Their memories of their Dad need to be of love and acceptance.

This sums it up so well. He needs to deal with it properly in therapy, if he refuses to do so I would leave him. He is going to damage your children.

Geriatric1234 · 17/12/2021 09:26

This was oddly heartbreaking to read OP. I think @user1471474462 really put it perfectly - this isn't really a JW issue (I have a close friend who is JW and 'celebrates' xmas with no religious iconography) but an abuse issue.

I can't really offer decent advice other than abuse and intergenerational trauma are cyclical and so you do need to see him trying to break this cycle, otherwise you may need to consider your future with him. It sounds like in many ways he's worth trying with, but he does need to meet you halfway, and that halfway point is therapy.

We are a non-secular country. Most of us in the UK are not religious, so Christmas is more of a 'historical' (culturally) celebration and your children won't be able to avoid feeling excluded at school/around friends if their father is so adamantly refusing to accept its existence.

Really hope he is able to take a breath and reflect on all of this.

What I would add, is for people who have never experienced abuse, going to therapy seems like the easiest and most logical thing to do. That's because there isn't really any trauma to uncover or face and process. For this who have been abused, taking a step to engage in therapy and therefore unleash repressed and neatly boxed up emotions is HUGE. The prospect of talking about it can be physically painful. It won't feel like a healthy step, it will feel horrific for him. So expect resistance, empathise but keep pushing. xx

MMMarmite · 17/12/2021 09:26

He desperately needs trauma therapy. I really hope you can get him to see that OP, before he lets his past ruin his present.

Hemingwayscatz · 17/12/2021 09:27

He needs urgent counselling to deal with this. I have two friends who were raised JW and both are gay so shunned by their families too. One went as far as marrying a fellow JW in his early 20s to keep up the pretence but he struggled so much he was suicidal so he just came clean and his family haven’t spoken to him since. I totally understand what your DH must be going through just from hearing their experiences, absolutely ghastly cult-like religion.

Having said that, he shouldn’t now be ruining his small children’s Christmases. Christmas isn’t a religious celebration for most people nowadays at all I’d say, particularly younger people. He needs to sort his mental health out before he ruins his children’s.

MMMarmite · 17/12/2021 09:28

What I would add, is for people who have never experienced abuse, going to therapy seems like the easiest and most logical thing to do. That's because there isn't really any trauma to uncover or face and process. For this who have been abused, taking a step to engage in therapy and therefore unleash repressed and neatly boxed up emotions is HUGE. The prospect of talking about it can be physically painful. It won't feel like a healthy step, it will feel horrific for him. So expect resistance, empathise but keep pushing. xx

Absolutely. Dealing with trauma is awful. The only thing worse is the consequences of dealing with it

MMMarmite · 17/12/2021 09:30

If you do manage to get him to agree to therapy, do your research and pick a very experienced therapist who has an interest in trauma. General counselling is not going to cut it here.

I recommend The Body Keeps The Score, and Mindsight, to help you understand yourself about how trauma can be healed.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 17/12/2021 09:30

Your children will be fine until he is in a better headspace not celebrating Christmas, is not the end of the world, I say this as a child who didn’t.

That's not necessarily true, and I say that as someone who never celebrated Christmas as a child though all my friends and schoolmates did.

Their dad having better mental health is more important.

Yes his mental health problems need to be dealt with wherever they come from, but while the children don't have to celebrate with him it's not a good idea to let his MH problems dominate the family. The OP said she was carrying his problems for him, she can't keep doing that and neither can the children. Celebrating with the OP's parents seems a reasonable compromise. This is a boundary issue, his irrational fears that his children will become "religious" shouldn't stop them celebrating even if he can't.

The family can't just wait for him to be in a better headspace, especially not if he is doing nothing to help himself and he seems to be getting worse.

BettyfromBristol · 17/12/2021 09:31

The two JW siblings at my DCs school were the saddest children I have ever known. Unable to form real friendships and removed from so many of the best bits of primary school. I don't think they were bullied but the other children just thought they were weird and mostly ignored them despite the efforts of the staff.

It was also a strain on the school as a TA had to be in a separate room with them for much of the time from October onwards as they weren't allowed to even see the classroom decorations etc. They may as well have been tutored privately.

Earlier this week I had the pleasure to be in a setting where children of many faiths and none were having a Christmas party. They all had a fabulous time at Eid too.

OP, you need to tell your DH that either he gets specialist therapy or he moves out. He does not get to emotionally abuse your children or dictate that his views are more important than yours. My DH is a Christian, I am not, but we worked together to give our DC magical Christmases when they were small.

RedRobyn2021 · 17/12/2021 09:31

I had a boyfriend when I was 19 (my first love ❤️) whose family were JW and he became atheist too. A lot of what you e said sounds familiar. I have no advice, it's really difficult.

MMMarmite · 17/12/2021 09:32

@MMMarmite

What I would add, is for people who have never experienced abuse, going to therapy seems like the easiest and most logical thing to do. That's because there isn't really any trauma to uncover or face and process. For this who have been abused, taking a step to engage in therapy and therefore unleash repressed and neatly boxed up emotions is HUGE. The prospect of talking about it can be physically painful. It won't feel like a healthy step, it will feel horrific for him. So expect resistance, empathise but keep pushing. xx

Absolutely. Dealing with trauma is awful. The only thing worse is the consequences of dealing with it

Sorry that should say the consequences of not dealing with it!

Chocolatewheatos · 17/12/2021 09:34

He's going to do to his kids what his parents did to him.
Tell him you're going to do Christmas for the kids. You could even just do present opening and dinner with your family and he doesn't have to go. But your kids shouldn't miss out because he did.

MMMarmite · 17/12/2021 09:35

Good post @user1471474462

Girliefriendlikespuppies · 17/12/2021 09:35

Seems a bit nonsensical to admit to a traumatic childhood not celebrating Christmas and then inflict the same thing on his own kids.

He needs therapy for his own issues.

Your kids need a normal happy childhood which includes enjoying Christmas.

RedRobyn2021 · 17/12/2021 09:39

@Chocolatewheatos

He's going to do to his kids what his parents did to him. Tell him you're going to do Christmas for the kids. You could even just do present opening and dinner with your family and he doesn't have to go. But your kids shouldn't miss out because he did.

I think this is a bit far

The children will survive not having Christmas, lots of children aren't Christian and don't celebrate Christmas.

His mother abused and traumatised him. He isn't doing that to his children and to say so is clumsy at best.

Newmumatlast · 17/12/2021 09:42

@ohganggang

Been together 7 years, married for 5. We have a 4 year old DD, a 2 year old DS and I'm pregnant with out 3rd. DH was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they do not celebrate Christmas as they believe it is satanic. The religion has a shunning policy and DH got shunned by his family and friends when it came out he was in a relationship with a non-JW (me) at the start of our relationship as that is forbidden. He is essentially dead to his mum, dad and siblings.

DH had stopped believing in the religion long before I came on the scene and was just keeping up pretenses for his family until he got found out. He is now as atheist as they come. He has a lot of religious trauma from his childhood, from growing up believing the world was about to end, watching the kids at his school celebrating Christmas and 'knowing' they were going to be killed in Armageddon for it (they teach that God will kill literally everybody who isn't a JW, no exceptions), being taught that the world is run by Satan etc etc. He lived his childhood in perpetual fear. I have advised him to seek counselling and he won't.

He now rejects anything to do with religion, and can't be doing with Christmas. He actually gets depressed every year around the Christmas season and says it's because it brings up the trauma of his childhood. Because of this, we've never bothered with Christmas together. For the first couple of years of the relationship before living together, marriage and DC I'd just go to my family on Christmas Day as usual. Christmas 2017 after DD was born, we stayed home and did nothing and it was the first year I didn't do anything for Christmas. Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on. He also wants the kids to be completely atheist and have nothing to do with religion. I accepted that.

But DD is now 4, and in pre-school, and the pre-school is making a huge deal out of Christmas coming up soon. I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine but we're in a small town with not much cultural diversity so I think they've assumed all of the kids will be celebrating at home. They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread. Naturally, the talk of a Christmas nativity, the kids being hyped up about an upcoming Christmas 'party' and general encouragement for the kids to talk about Christmas among themselves, has resulted in DD getting excited for Christmas.

I have told DH today that I don't think it's fair on the kids and that I don't think it's right to project his trauma on to the kids. To me it seems like a case of "I didn't get to have Christmas so why should my kids?". I do understand his trauma though. I tried to compromise saying we don't have to decorate the house but I am doing presents for the kids and me and the kids will go to my parents on the day to celebrate and he can stay at home. He says no, that he isn't comfortable with his kids having "that religious bullshit in their lives". I'm really annoyed with him.

He needs to realise he is going to cause them the same trauma but by a different route. He is being like an evangelical Christian but the atheist version. He's treating it dogmatically like it is a religion. He needs to seek therapy to ensure he doesnt traumatise his own children who should be free to make their own choices not ridigly follow his because he says so ... exactly what happened to him. What if they dont want to be atheist? What if they do but want Christmas? He is doing exactly what was done to him - forcing beliefs and customs to their detriment.

As their parent you have a responsibility to your children too. If you think it is negatively impacting them you should put their best interests first not your relationship. If he is unwilling to get therapy and to change, for me my kids would come first and he would get an ultimatum.

He doesnt have to engage in Christmas. But he shouldn't be dictating to his family what they do.

And to be honest yabu expecting school not to do Christmas things when it is part of this country's culture. You are expecting schools not to do activities which compliment the culture of the country majority because of your children. And not because of any religious belief even - because of some odd situation where your husband is traumatised and therefore as a byproduct of his trauma, preventing his children from engaging in something they seem to otherwise want to given you took them for xmas at your family. There will be other children in the school from other religions who are confident and stable in their beliefs and will understand that most people in the UK have Christmas and therefore are perfectly capable of doing Christmas activities without being traumatised or it threatening their beliefs. If it did threaten them, their beliefs quite frankly would be fragile. That's why I've never understood people excluding kids from RE or activities like that - if your beliefs are based on a rational and strong foundation they wouldnt be threatened by outside though and education would they

Newmumatlast · 17/12/2021 09:43

*outside thought

HappydaysArehere · 17/12/2021 09:44

Does he celebrate birthdays by giving cards and presents?
I would definitely celebrate Christmas as much as possible and say you loved Christmas and not celebrating really depresses you. Yes get a tree and presents for the children. It’s important to give children times to look back on and happiness to pass on to their children.

guardiansofthegalaxychocs · 17/12/2021 09:46

If everything you say about what a kind and loving partner he is, is true then I’d be strategic. Christmas is probably a hugely tense time. So in the new year I would sit him down and let him know that you are concerned that his trauma is now starting to impact the kids. You need him to consider counselling and that you think it would be good for him to be able to talk more. Be up front that you would like to celebrate secular Christmas with the children next year. That you don’t want to discuss it now but you want him to seriously unpick whether denying the kids the fun is what he is trying to achieve.
He’ll likely be ruffled up by the conversation but you then have a year to process together and come up with a plan you can both agree on.