To think DH is selfish denying the DC Christmas?

[ohganggang]

Been together 7 years, married for 5. We have a 4 year old DD, a 2 year old DS and I'm pregnant with out 3rd. DH was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they do not celebrate Christmas as they believe it is satanic. The religion has a shunning policy and DH got shunned by his family and friends when it came out he was in a relationship with a non-JW (me) at the start of our relationship as that is forbidden. He is essentially dead to his mum, dad and siblings.

DH had stopped believing in the religion long before I came on the scene and was just keeping up pretenses for his family until he got found out. He is now as atheist as they come. He has a lot of religious trauma from his childhood, from growing up believing the world was about to end, watching the kids at his school celebrating Christmas and 'knowing' they were going to be killed in Armageddon for it (they teach that God will kill literally everybody who isn't a JW, no exceptions), being taught that the world is run by Satan etc etc. He lived his childhood in perpetual fear. I have advised him to seek counselling and he won't.

He now rejects anything to do with religion, and can't be doing with Christmas. He actually gets depressed every year around the Christmas season and says it's because it brings up the trauma of his childhood. Because of this, we've never bothered with Christmas together. For the first couple of years of the relationship before living together, marriage and DC I'd just go to my family on Christmas Day as usual. Christmas 2017 after DD was born, we stayed home and did nothing and it was the first year I didn't do anything for Christmas. Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on. He also wants the kids to be completely atheist and have nothing to do with religion. I accepted that.

But DD is now 4, and in pre-school, and the pre-school is making a huge deal out of Christmas coming up soon. I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine but we're in a small town with not much cultural diversity so I think they've assumed all of the kids will be celebrating at home. They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread. Naturally, the talk of a Christmas nativity, the kids being hyped up about an upcoming Christmas 'party' and general encouragement for the kids to talk about Christmas among themselves, has resulted in DD getting excited for Christmas.

I have told DH today that I don't think it's fair on the kids and that I don't think it's right to project his trauma on to the kids. To me it seems like a case of "I didn't get to have Christmas so why should my kids?". I do understand his trauma though. I tried to compromise saying we don't have to decorate the house but I am doing presents for the kids and me and the kids will go to my parents on the day to celebrate and he can stay at home. He says no, that he isn't comfortable with his kids having "that religious bullshit in their lives". I'm really annoyed with him.

This thread makes really sad reading. Putting the specific issue to one side, your husband recognises that he has issues stemming from childhood trauma but flat out refuses to seek help. He sounds like he has a lot to say on the subject of Christmas, his childhood and the JW religion, yet your posts are strangely lacking in detail about what he actually says when you ask him to get counselling. What justification is he actually giving? You need to get him to face up to the fact that he needs help, and you need to act as soon as you possibly can to nip this in the bud before he really damages your children’s childhoods- your eldest is now old enough to be firing clear, lasting memories.

Do not let him get away with stonewalling you.

Also, I think you know this, schools in this country will celebrate Christmas. I taught in schools where we had only a handful of non Muslim children and we still did secular Christmas and taught them what Christians believe. Parents occasionally wanted to talk about it but once they understood it was just about having cultural understanding rather than trying to convert their children, they all allowed their children to participate. We had halal Christmas dinner etc too.

OP your DH needs counselling.

I'm celebrating Winter Solstice next Tuesday.

There will be food and drink and fun.

I'm atheist but usually do something with the pagan calendar because I like to mark the turning of the year.

I think if you want to raise atheist children then exposing them to as many different cultural and religious experiences works better than ignoring things.

Are your children allowed to celebrate birthdays?

Yanbu - my dh hates Christmas for different reasons but it also brings up childhood traumas. If left to him he'd get them a present or two like birthdays (not stockings Santa etc) but I'm not sure he'd do anymore, maybe a tree if kids nagged him idk.

I do most of it and I'm happy to. Your dh does sound like he's of the whole I suffered so you should suffer mentality which is abusive imo.

Firstly Christmas is actually based on a pagan festival of bringing light into the darkest part of the year, the Christians monopolised it. Secondly it is a secular festival for most people these days, people I know of other cultures and religion do something for the time/day, even if it's only having the bank holiday off, watching TV and eating nice food.

I think you need to make a stand against him if you want your dc to celebrate, why does his miserable opinion trump yours?

It’s not just about Christmas. Your DH is being massively selfish by not dealing with his trauma, and making his family carry the weight of it, whilst he obsesses with a new cult (in this case, ex JW propaganda).

Just make clear to him that your children are celebrating Christmas. If he doesn’t like it, tough. Your compromise can be to go to your parents. If he’s still not happy, he can leave. Don’t saddle your children with your husbands trauma.

he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on

He’s doing the same to his children. He is the epitome of selfish

I'm atheist. My immediate family are agnostic or atheist - so religion does not feature.
My Xmas is all about family & friends - people we appreciate in our lives. It's about treating each other well and particularly in current times just enjoying ourselves and recharging our batteries.
I think your dh is being unfair to the dc and passing his problems down. IMO it's straightforward- some people believe x, some believe y; we are doing z. Kids don't need anything too in depth at that age, but no Christmas will take more explaining than having your own version.
Make it what you want your Xmas to be.

Meant to add my dh made an effort for the kids particularly on the day and especially when young and excited, they wouldn't know he was struggling with it all.

You don't have to go all out Christmastastic, but like you said the children will have a worse time doing nothing now they know what other kids do do. Do what you want, whether that's Christmas at yours or going to your family.

Should have said that I wasn't bothered by not celebrating Christmas even though my friends did, but this is different because he is doing it as a (harmful) strategy to manage his own trauma. He's making the children carry his burden for him.

I’d ignore him and push on with whatever you want to do with the kids. As long as you keep it ‘cultural’ and not religious he hasn’t got a leg to stand on with his complaints and can go whistle Dixie. I’d suggest he go out for the day if it bothers him.

What a selfish, selfish man. Your poor kids! So it triggers his trauma of not getting to enjoy Christmas, so he stops his kids from being able to enjoy Christmas?!?! Nasty man

Christmas is no longer about religion for most people, I think he is not wanting to celebrate because it obviously brings back the pain of being left out of the celebrations himself when he was a child.

However:

Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on.

Surely he can see that he is creating the same upset for his children by making them miss out too?

He could live the rest of his life having lovely Christmases with his family, rather than dwelling on the pain of his past. I hope you manage to talk him round, for your children's sake and his.

Most people do not purposely abuse their children. It sounds as though his mother had serious mental health issues. She screwed up her child( ren)

Your husband is not purposely abusing his children. It sounds as though he has serious mental health issues. He is screwing up his children. They’ll be on a website like this in a few years time. And they’ll be accusing you of not protecting them. Some children go NC with both their parents for this.

What kind of legacy is he trying to leave? And what kind of legacy are you trying to leave?

He sounds abusive and controlling due to his trauma. The language you use is telling. Allowing you to do things (or not). His reaction for not obeying him. Him not seeing your children as people and future teens and adults in this society.

Not wanting to upset the little boy inside him is particularly disturbing. He doesn’t want to heal. He wants to pretend it doesn’t hurt.

I'd be going to your parents for Christmas op. He doesn't get the only vote in this.

As an aside, are you home schooling? Because if not there will be yearly nativities and Carol services and the Easter bonnet parades etc. Do they still do prayers in assembly and sing religious songs? Are you going to pull them out of all that? Our last wk of term have been a visit to panto, a Carol service, school nativity, Carol service and christmas party.

OP, your DH needs a specialist therapist who deals with debriefing cult survivors.
It is a long and painful process, and your DH needs to be willing to engage with it.
You say he is very resistant, and has simply replaced one cult with another (the ex JW group) - in that case, you need to deliver an ultimatum.
He goes to therapy or he leaves. You cannot let him damage your children like this - you have a greater responsibility to them than him. He is an adult, they are dependent. And their future happiness is at stake.

@ohganggang

I completely admit to underestimating the massive effect his upbringing has had on him, and having his own children has bought it out much more.

When DD was a newborn his mum sent her a present in the post and messaged him asking him to come back to Jehovah for the baby's sake and he wasn't himself for weeks.

I'm sorry to say he will struggle more and more as the kids grow up, he needs to address it now.

For my DH, having children brought up a lot of trauma of his childhood (emotional abuse) its like it confirmed in his head how little they cared for him as he knew he could never treat his own children that way.

So yes deep down I suspect he is stil still that terrified little boy who think Armageddon is coming and there maybe an element of "what if..."

I was raised a Christian, not at all devout but got sent to Sunday school etc. I was impressionable, I believed in god knowing our thoughts and deeds etc, even though my logical head tells me different, a little little part still does "what if..." I can't imagine how intense that would feel if raised a JV.

@ohganggang

He's gotten, much, much worse with it since having children though admittedly was always anti-Christmas. I have Muslim friends with kids who don't do Christmas and I always assumed it wouldn't be that much of a problem and yes now my opinion is changing. I admit that.

It's just such a shame though because he's essentially making his kids live as if they are following a religion by making a point of not celebrating Christmas.

You'd think he'd want to get as far away from JW as possible, but when people ask why your kids don't celebrate they will have to say "because daddy was a JW" and people will just assume they are too. So I definitely think you're right that there is still some belief/worry that it's true in him.

@biggirlknickers

His argument makes no sense - he hates Christmas because of the trauma of his childhood when he missed the joy of Christmas, so his children have to suffer the same trauma? This literally makes no sense.

This. And tbh, Christmas is some ways is better as a parent than a child as you are doing the giving and seeing all their excitement. He may as well go back to being a JW if he's going to pretend Christmas doesn't exist.

But you can't all drown because he won't reach for your hand to pull him out of the water. Op it's on your shoulders. You have to break this generational trauma. Especially if we want to be included in your grandchildren's Christmas celebrations.

For my DH, having children brought up a lot of trauma of his childhood (emotional abuse) its like it confirmed in his head how little they cared for him as he knew he could never treat his own children that way.

Yes I think this is common, and also seeing how young and innocent children actually are while remembering how you were treated at that same age can be a big trigger for abuse survivors.

@ohganggang How would he feel about you taking your kids to your parents/whoever on Christmas Day to celebrate? Would he stomach that (staying home himself) or is he dead set against them being a part of it at all?

I don't celebrate Christmas in large part because of abuse I experienced as a child, including religious trauma (high control American Evangelical). I simply have no positive associations with it at all, so on that I can sympathize because no matter how much people say it's not a religious holiday, I can't take the expectations or violence I experienced out of that holiday so easily.

My spouse and I have had to come up with tweak things over the years, but now we end up working so others can have a happy time and then we have ours with our kids at New Year with the traditions we've decided on in our family. For schools and friends, we let our kids do whatever they feel comfortable with (which this year includes my daughters doing a reading in a Cathedral, which yeah, I'm having to deal with my feelings around that, but I 100% support them to the point of intending to attend before further COVID restrictions were brought into the event). As they've gotten older, they've put up cards in their room and this year I even bought fairy lights for them to put in their rooms - I just need communal spaces to be fairly clear for the traditions we've made and so I can better manage my health.

Thing is, he is choosing to spend his days around his triggers, essentially. It's very common for those raised in high controls to end up in spaces that replicate that us vs them, legalistic order workings, as others said. It's very normal for us to basically retraumatize ourselves in a way as we think talking about it will automatically make it better when it often makes it worse (I know he won't do therapy, but I'd recommend the Crappy Childhood Fairy who discusses this well).

I've been there, and in a few groups that perpetuated this over the years, and the best thing my spouse did for me was discuss it with me openly (though obviously away from the kids) - asking things like how I know certain things are true, telling me right to me face that it was fine if I wanted to think something but he couldn't be part of that and also times when he's taken my too farness to a ridiculous extreme to try to get me to see what I was doing, like many years when I struggled to go in I think it was Canterbury Cathedral with his family - it was one where tourists had to give money to enter and I struggled with the idea of giving money to a church and he told me to stop acting like those who let artifacts be destroyed because I disagree with the faith it comes from.

Yeah, it can bring up emotions, but that's really needed when it's often a way to continue repressing ours and injuring ourselves. It's a form of self harm and until we learn to accept uncertainty and that 'us v them' walls were instilled by our unbringing as a way those groups try to maintain control and are never going to help us, many people keep doing it thinking we're helping ourselves and others.

Whatever changes you make - and it does sound like some are needed - as a household, we have to balance everyone's needs and wants. My trauma does effect my household, but it can't be the only thing in consideration. I think you would be perfectly reasonable to have Christmas time at your parents' house and he is being very unreasonable to think he gets to decide how his kids are going to view the world. It's understandable, but it's not that different than his parents. Until he sees that, it's going to be difficult.

I'm sorry OP but you are being selfish too. By avoiding having Christmas in your house or trying to establish something for the kids at home you are making it easier for yourself by not triggering your husband. You won't get your children presents or a tree because YOU don't want to deal with his tantrums. It's time now for YOU to take control and decide what's more important to you - your husband being in control or your children having a happy childhood.

Christmas is obviously import to you, and it's important to your children. It's time for you to put their needs and happiness before your husband's. He needs an ultimatum, either he faces his trauma and gets counselling or he gets a divorce. This is really shitty for your kids and it's ruining their childhood.

Tricky one. I think he needs to be willing to craft a holiday celebration that makes no mention of Christianity. For kids it's mostly about Santa and the elves anyway.

If he isn't willing to do that then I do think he's being selfish. He needs to compromise.

@Mummyoflittledragon

Most people do not purposely abuse their children. It sounds as though his mother had serious mental health issues. She screwed up her child( ren)

Your husband is not purposely abusing his children. It sounds as though he has serious mental health issues. He is screwing up his children. They’ll be on a website like this in a few years time. And they’ll be accusing you of not protecting them. Some children go NC with both their parents for this.

What kind of legacy is he trying to leave? And what kind of legacy are you trying to leave?

He sounds abusive and controlling due to his trauma. The language you use is telling. Allowing you to do things (or not). His reaction for not obeying him. Him not seeing your children as people and future teens and adults in this society.

Not wanting to upset the little boy inside him is particularly disturbing. He doesn’t want to heal. He wants to pretend it doesn’t hurt.

To be fair, I don't think it's abusive not to celebrate Christmas? DH's mother sounds like she treated him very poorly. He is not doing that, he's just hiding from his own past and Christmas is the collateral damage.

I wouldn't say he's being abusive at all, it's just a shame when, in the UK at least, the majority of people around will be celebrating, getting gifts and having a lovely day with their family while he is insistent that his children miss out due to his own unresolved issues.

Especially as if they attend a mainstream school in the UK they will be doing everything that's part of the run-up to Christmas, yet there is nothing at the end of it for them. At least if children follow other religions they have their own important festivals and specials days so it's easier to understand why they don't celebrate Christmas in the same way.

I just think it's such a hard situation when someone has been severely damaged by their own treatment in childhood.

This man is not just choosing to be a dick, he has deep seated trauma that is very hard to move on from. He does need to try and work through it, a therapist specialising in religion/cults etc could help him massively, but equally sometimes there is only so much people can take mentally and it can be years before they are ready for this step.

I would expect a compromise of OP taking the children elsewhere to celebrate Christmas Day. He doesn't need to partake at all but he should at least try and let his children enjoy the day.