To think DH is selfish denying the DC Christmas?

[ohganggang]

Been together 7 years, married for 5. We have a 4 year old DD, a 2 year old DS and I'm pregnant with out 3rd. DH was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they do not celebrate Christmas as they believe it is satanic. The religion has a shunning policy and DH got shunned by his family and friends when it came out he was in a relationship with a non-JW (me) at the start of our relationship as that is forbidden. He is essentially dead to his mum, dad and siblings.

DH had stopped believing in the religion long before I came on the scene and was just keeping up pretenses for his family until he got found out. He is now as atheist as they come. He has a lot of religious trauma from his childhood, from growing up believing the world was about to end, watching the kids at his school celebrating Christmas and 'knowing' they were going to be killed in Armageddon for it (they teach that God will kill literally everybody who isn't a JW, no exceptions), being taught that the world is run by Satan etc etc. He lived his childhood in perpetual fear. I have advised him to seek counselling and he won't.

He now rejects anything to do with religion, and can't be doing with Christmas. He actually gets depressed every year around the Christmas season and says it's because it brings up the trauma of his childhood. Because of this, we've never bothered with Christmas together. For the first couple of years of the relationship before living together, marriage and DC I'd just go to my family on Christmas Day as usual. Christmas 2017 after DD was born, we stayed home and did nothing and it was the first year I didn't do anything for Christmas. Me and DH had a conversation that year and he said he doesn't want to do Christmas with our kids as it will trigger his trauma and remind him of the childhood joy he missed out on. He also wants the kids to be completely atheist and have nothing to do with religion. I accepted that.

But DD is now 4, and in pre-school, and the pre-school is making a huge deal out of Christmas coming up soon. I find this problematic because obviously it causes issues for families like mine but we're in a small town with not much cultural diversity so I think they've assumed all of the kids will be celebrating at home. They absolutely haven't considered some families might not be celebrating Christmas and I've debated raising a complaint, but that's another thread. Naturally, the talk of a Christmas nativity, the kids being hyped up about an upcoming Christmas 'party' and general encouragement for the kids to talk about Christmas among themselves, has resulted in DD getting excited for Christmas.

I have told DH today that I don't think it's fair on the kids and that I don't think it's right to project his trauma on to the kids. To me it seems like a case of "I didn't get to have Christmas so why should my kids?". I do understand his trauma though. I tried to compromise saying we don't have to decorate the house but I am doing presents for the kids and me and the kids will go to my parents on the day to celebrate and he can stay at home. He says no, that he isn't comfortable with his kids having "that religious bullshit in their lives". I'm really annoyed with him.

So they cant celebrate christmas in pre school because it might upset some people! Catch yourself on!
What if it upsets people to not celebrate christmas?
What next? No chocolate at easter because some people can’t have chocolate!
Honestly!

You are 50% responsible for denying them Christmas as well.
Your kids are 50% your DNA. Each parent is half but some would say the bulk of parenting falls to the Mother... Yet you allow him to totally have his way in the pretty massive Christmas ban.
Are you afraid of displeasing him? He sounds very controlling.
You are not his puppet or his servant yet you do what he wants and deny your own wishes.

Christmas in our society is a massive social and cultural event. It's much more than a religious thing.
Your DH needs therapy and or antiDs if you are tiptoeing around trying not to mention the C word for fear he'll get depressed. It sounds fucking miserable OP

Has your DH recreated his own little patriarchal cult of faithful followers at your house, who are afraid to put their true views across or question the leader lest they be shunned?

Also why on earth can't you have chocolate bunnies or chocolate eggs at easter. Symbols of spring and in no way religious.
Who made him god?

He is very controlling

@Monkeymilkshake

So they cant celebrate christmas in pre school because it might upset some people! Catch yourself on! What if it upsets people to not celebrate christmas? What next? No chocolate at easter because some people can’t have chocolate! Honestly!

Calm down! I took it that OP was thinking of mentioning to the school that they might want to consider that not all kids had the same celebration at home over Christmas, and adjust the messaging a bit to make other children aware.- bit like remembering to be sensitive to the feelings of kids without involved Dads on Fathers’ day.

Also following on from my last post, come up with your own name for the non-religious traditions you indulge in... not Christ-mass as that is inherently religeous, you could use Noel which technically don't mean anything Christian but does mean 'birth' or maybe invent something like 'Winterfeast' or something.

Focus on family, food, 'experiences' (theater, skating etc...) may be gifts if you want and by calling it something entirely different its not Christmas... even do it on another day if you prefer (many of the world celebrates 6th January more than 25th December, some do 24th December nothing is set in stone).

@lottiegarbanzo

Huh? How is that a distinctly 'male' perspective, or any different from the 300 previous comments saying the same thing *@SkiAlexander* ?

Particular perspectives can be very relevant, because they're particular - like those from fellow former JWs here. I don't get what's 'male' about your comment though, the relevance of your being so. Is there a particular relevance?

@lottiegarbanzo

No- no relevance at all. Its simply that everyone from across the panoply of identity thinks he’s acting like an idiot. That’s all.

What’s the relevance of asking?

@mam0918 while I completely agree with your post, I thought that “Santa Claus” was an Anglicisation of the German “Sankt Nicklaus” - Saint Nick.

I'm ex JW, however, I think it's a stretch to call his early life traumatic.
Living thru a war maybe or some existential threat, not being brought up in a religion.
Sounds like he's using that experience as an excuse to be mean-spirited, controlling just like his parents.
I don't understand why you cannot just be the leader in pushing the celebrations. I have to admit to not getting overly excited about what I would class as Hallmark days, I think they're all a bit twee.
We have a huge tree and presents, although I don't become giddy like Mrs. Hr over Xmas, easter or birthdays or work/style office parties, etc connected to these events. Shite.

Santa Claus is very likely to be derived from St Nicholas, 3rd century bishop from Turkey. One of the stories about him is that a man lost all his money and was destitute. His 3 daughters were thus going to be sold into prostitution. St N, who was rich but giving his fortune away to good causes, threw a bag of gold through their window (later versions a chimney) every night for 3 nights, thus providing them each with a dowry and saving them. He is frequently depicted in red robes and is firmly in the "actually derived from Christianity" tradition.

He may have left the Witnesses, but he is still acting like one - man at the head of the household dictating how wife and children behave. So I guess he is keeping the behaviours that suit him. Right now it's about Christmas but it will be other issues later, when the children are growing and especially when they become teenagers.

So you need to sort this now.

I am very familiar with this cult (which is what it is) and how it destroys families.

He needs to take a long hard look at his behaviour and recognise that he is following the patterns that he says he hates. Maybe counselling would help.

In the meantime be assertive and get yourself some decorations for the kids at least.

Family full of atheists here - we still have fun at Christmas.

OP,

Your husband sounds like he has PTSD from his childhood.

I have absolutely no doubt he is inflicting his trauma on your children into the next generation.

Look at your options.
Talk to your family.

If he is not prepared to get help, you need him to leave.

This is neither fair nor healthy for your children.

As they grow up and become independent minds and mouths you are going to have an awful time with his ruling the home with his cult views.

He is inflicting his childhood trauma on your children.

This is deal breaker stuff.

Reach out for support.

Your DH suffered abuse from JW plus a narcissistic mother: a double whammy.

And that's very, very sad. I have a narc mother who spiritually abused me too - in a different way to your DH.

His behaviour ticks many "normal" boxes for someone who is deeply traumatised.

But your primary job is to make sure your kids are happy and healthy. If he is standing in the way of that and will not do anything to improve the situation if his kids, you have to take control.

It doesn't matter if you stay home or go to your parents, the goal is to make this time special for the children. Do not force him to partake, leave him to himself.

Other people are saying he's a dick. I would say he's behaving like a dick, but his intentions come from deep trauma, he's not simply malicious. However, his intentions/trauma do not lessen the impact of his actions and behaviour on the kids. You need to focus on the impact part right now.

What you are going to end up doing is creating another generation of children that carry psychological issues due to a controlling father and being denied the opportunity to be like their peers.

They within damage their children with their disordered behaviour and so it goes on until someone steps in to break this.

He is being a selfish controlling fucking twat. He was controlled his whole life, does he not see he's now doing the same. Idiot!
Do no raise a comment with the school, that would be ridiculous!

We are atheists. We love christmas! Nothing religious about it here but lots to value. You don't need to go big but it would be weird to avoid it entirely if YOU value it in any way.
My 3 old is already excited and enjoying it- I can't imagine denying him all that fun because of a fully grown adults extreme views. I think it's a perfectly fair compromise to do it at your mothers house this year.

@CPL593H

Santa Claus is very likely to be derived from St Nicholas, 3rd century bishop from Turkey. One of the stories about him is that a man lost all his money and was destitute. His 3 daughters were thus going to be sold into prostitution. St N, who was rich but giving his fortune away to good causes, threw a bag of gold through their window (later versions a chimney) every night for 3 nights, thus providing them each with a dowry and saving them. He is frequently depicted in red robes and is firmly in the "actually derived from Christianity" tradition.

Grandfather frost (aka Ded Moroz) the snow spirit is original 'Santa Claus' (as depicted the mythical character we have today) who wore a blue and silver furry suit (Americans changed it to red in the 19th centuary) PREDATES Christianity and St. Nicholas so it literally CAN'T be about him.

St. Nick had nothing to do with snow, the north pole, reindeer, sleighs, gifts, the 25th or anything attributed to 'Santa Claus'... St. Nicks day is December 6th and he left stockings with money dowerys in that is all.

JW are a vile cult. Extreme teaching yet out and about like it's normal, it isn't normal at all, it's damaging.

For your family as others have said Christmas is a family festival non religious, fun, presents, elf, Santa, food and none of that has anything to do with religion. Avoid the singing, the preaching that some do whilst pretending they are different and make it your own.

I even will hum the odd carol sometimes as some of them are kind of catchy.

@SkiAlexander

Coming from a male perspective, it sounds a little as though all he’s going to do with that attitude, is perpetuate the same trauma he has on his kids- imagine growing up being told you’re not allowed to celebrate Christmas because your dad wasn’t allowed to- that’s a toxic relationship just waiting to happen right there. Tell him to stop being such a silly twat and to do it for the kids!

Oh well, it’s from a male perspective we’ll all take notice 🙄

JW are not a cult. Following the Bible's guidance and standards does not make them a cult.
There is nothing extremest about them. You don't need to feel sorry for the children who are being brought up in happy families, most will have lovely settled lives being brought up to be decent honest hard-working humans . Yes there will be cases of people with bad experiences that is usually because of the actual family/parents, this is very sad. How many people are walking around having had toxic upbringings ( who haven't been brought up as Jws) this is a fact of life and it's awful, this is the parents fault,
Having a positive hope for the future is actually a nice thing to have, it helps to keep you grounded when the world is in such a mess.

@SkiAlexander

Coming from a male perspective, it sounds a little as though all he’s going to do with that attitude, is perpetuate the same trauma he has on his kids- imagine growing up being told you’re not allowed to celebrate Christmas because your dad wasn’t allowed to- that’s a toxic relationship just waiting to happen right there. Tell him to stop being such a silly twat and to do it for the kids!

Why do you think we need a “male perspective “? Are why announce your sex?

@PeacheyPeach

JW are not a cult. Following the Bible's guidance and standards does not make them a cult. There is nothing extremest about them. You don't need to feel sorry for the children who are being brought up in happy families, most will have lovely settled lives being brought up to be decent honest hard-working humans . Yes there will be cases of people with bad experiences that is usually because of the actual family/parents, this is very sad. How many people are walking around having had toxic upbringings ( who haven't been brought up as Jws) this is a fact of life and it's awful, this is the parents fault, Having a positive hope for the future is actually a nice thing to have, it helps to keep you grounded when the world is in such a mess.

I don’t want to derail the thread, but they certainly are a cult. In all definitions of the word.

Don't you get shunned if you leave and your family aren't allowed to have anything to do with you?

Sounds like something a cult would do...

He may not be JW anymore, but he's still displaying the typical intolerance to others beliefs I see often with JWs.

Although I must say, if you look at the literature, JWs don't believe god will kill non believers, they do get a chance of redemption at the end apparently! Although I can imagine a few hardcore members not being accepting of that view!