To worry that I might lose my British citizenship one day because of the new law going through parliament?

[flashbac]

I was born here and so was one parent.

There is a Bill that has just been passed, while we were all distracted with shenanigans with parties and what not, that will allow citizenship to be revoked without notice.

I know the power to remove citizenship already exists but the without notice bit is quite scary. I assume that means someone could happily go about their business until they need to show right to be in the UK e.g new job or new rental and then poof, they can't access things and possibly get detained and then deported when they enquire about it and it's probably too late to contest it through the courts.

I know the responses will indicate how so many don't care, "don't do anything naughty then and they won't put you in the naughty bin ready to be turfed off to another land" but remember the right to protest, to give an example of how easy it will be to get on the wrong side of the authorities, will also be outlawed soon so anyone could be arrested, if the circumstances meant a person was driven to it, e.g you do a sit down protest outside a hospital because they covered up malpractice or, it's decided that a huge Amazon warehouse is built in the field behind your garden and you wanted to protest with your neighbours.

Lots of people will think this only affects 'foriners' so probably won't care. I think it's awful.

@TooBigForMyBoots

Oh please, the same old argument. It really is getting boring now.

And I think it’s beyond disgusting when people suggest it’s similar to the Holocaust. That’s absolutely atrocious and shouldn’t ever be brought up in the same sentence for god sake. Disgusting.*

You should have a wee look at history and how the Holocaust came about @Starcup.

Believe me, I know. I’ve been to Auschwitz and to compare what went on there to the new bill coming in to prevent terrorism is beyond ignorant.

@RandomLondoner

I may have a solution for people worried about this, though it won't suit everyone. Renounce your foreign citizenship first. It's true that they can't deprive you of citizenship if you don't have another to fall back on.

(Shamima Begum is a controversial case that is atypical. I think what happened is that she potentially had two citizenships, but had to actively claim one by a certain age, and they cancelled her British citizenship just in time to beat the cut-off. So she may have ended up stateless, but she wasn't made stateless at the price moment her British citizenship was removed, therefore it wasn't unlawful. I think it was effectively Bangladesh's age cut-off for claiming citizenship that ultimately rendered her stateless, in a scenario that the law-makers had not anticipated.)

RandomLondoner You've missed the point. You don't have to have citizenship somewhere, you just need to be eligible for it.

Your clearly not aware of the history of how Auschwitz concentration camp came into being @Starcup. It started with a wee law that disproportionately affected some people, including Jews. And sure nobody had to worry as long as they didn't do anything wrong.

@flashbac

Did you protest about it on 1/1/1983 when the BNA 81 came into force containing exactly the same legislation?

No, as I was a child and, circumstances were different then. In any case, there was always the right to appeal. This won't apply going forward as no information or even notice will be given before they take away your citizenship.

That's not true. You have no idea of the hoops the Home Office has to go through before deprivation would ever be considered. Look at how long Begum managed to hang on to hers.

The international Jewish community is already begging people to stop comparing everything to the Holocaust. Anti-Semitism is on the rise and being fed still further by these lazy comparisons. Principally with regard to Covid and mandatory measures but it doesn't take a huge leap to extrapolate the ludicrous comparison here too. It really needs to stop. Please read what the international Jewish community leaders are saying about this.

My second paragraph not to the OP but to the followers of Godwin.

@RandomLondoner

I may have a solution for people worried about this, though it won't suit everyone. Renounce your foreign citizenship first. It's true that they can't deprive you of citizenship if you don't have another to fall back on.

(Shamima Begum is a controversial case that is atypical. I think what happened is that she potentially had two citizenships, but had to actively claim one by a certain age, and they cancelled her British citizenship just in time to beat the cut-off. So she may have ended up stateless, but she wasn't made stateless at the price moment her British citizenship was removed, therefore it wasn't unlawful. I think it was effectively Bangladesh's age cut-off for claiming citizenship that ultimately rendered her stateless, in a scenario that the law-makers had not anticipated.)

It doesn’t matter.

My dcs are on paper eligible for the French citizenship and therefore the law would apply. Whether they could get ut is a different matter (esp if they had renounced it).

The case of S Begum is actually a case in point. The government had no idea at the time of whether she would or not be able to claim that citizenship. Or whether sh was going to be successful. Whether she has been or not is a different issue (Google doesn’t seem to be able to answer that question so I’m surprised you know for sure she is now a citizen of Bangladesh).

Basically the British government was and is happy to take the risk of someone ending up stateless even though it’s illegal for the British government to do so….

Plus of course, this was a different law altogether and the really big issue here is that people are stripped of their citizenship WITHOUT BEING TOLD ABOUT IT.
Cue discovering that when you want to go back into the country or if you want to prove you can get healthcare on the NHS (remember Windrush and people who died because they couldn’t get access the healthcare?) etc etc

I'm starting to Think starcup is Pritis Mumsnet name 🙈

I just hope all of the posters who are so sure the government won't abuse it have no family members who this could effect. Yup, this has been a law for a long time, however it's never been the case that you're not informed of this happening.
Also, together with the new policing bill, the definition of a terrorist is completely different to what these posters are going on about.
And EVEN if it wasn't. The whole point is, the citizenship is now two class, the second being so low that you don't even get to know when you've been stripped of it.

Its really quite worrying that some of these posters seem to think that people who hold dual citizenship want terrorists? Are you really that short sighted.
Renouncing your other citizenship makes zero difference. Please read the post before commenting, there's actually some very informative posters on here.

You don't have to have citizenship somewhere, you just need to be eligible for it.

I have two genuine questions: is there always, in law, a distinction between being eligible for a citizenship and having it? And if so, can you not renounce your right to citizenship, in the same way you can renounce the citizenship?

(I was born abroad, and grew up thinking of myself as citizen of that country who could claim British Citizenship due to a British father, but when the time came, I discovered that being entitled to British citizenship by ancestry meant I had always been British, in law, and "applying" just meant proving this so I could get a passport.)

I think you are probably right that there will be cases where you cannot renounce another citizenship. But there will be cases where you can, so my post will still help some of those people. (I never thought it would be helpful to everyone, as of course some people genuinely won't want to lose their other citizenship.)

(I guess I know that there is sometimes a distinction in law between a right to apply and having citizenship, as I know from threads on here that you can have the right to a citizenship at birth which you lose if nothing has been done to cement your claim by the time you are an adult.)

Not everything that happened in WWII is about the Jews and I've been to Auschwitz too, doesn't give me or Starcup any special powers. What happened to them is truly awful but they weren't the only ones they came for, they also came for the disabled, the socialists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, gypsies and anyone who just happened to disagree with them. The Holocaust is generally used as a term to refer to the murder of six million Jews but the issue is bigger than that and Niemoller's word are appropriate to other horrors e.g. the Soviet regime that also killed millions.

However the International Jewish community feel the horror and tragedy of WWII is not their's alone.

Niemoller, who wrote First they came for, was not a Jew but he spent 7 years in a concentration camp. In his quoted speech he does not just speak of the Holocaust, he is speaking of the danger of ignoring things because they don't directly affect you which is what some of us are emphasising.

The point of "First they came for" is not that any step will automatically affect Jews (although as has been pointed out Jews will be one of the ethnic groups at risk from this proposed law change) or that it will lead to Auschwitz, the point is that if we ignore these steps they can lead to a totalitarian regime.

Stripping people of their nationality is nothing like covid rules.

@Starcup what's ignorant is not acknowledging how vulnerable people are and how reliant they are on the government of the day to do the right thing.

Have you ever lived through a change of regime so radical that doing the right and moral thing became illegal? That a respected career and intellectuals were viewed with suspicion and were cause for concern? That you had to spy on your brother and telling him could mean losing your job,home or worse your life? That having a cousin in a certain country meant being looked at under a microscope or your job at risk, even if you never met them? That marrying a man with a certain job meant your life scrutinised to every single detail, including interviews with neighbours in your home town and your primary teachers? That a malicious accusation was enough to be carted off in the middle of the night and the best case scenario is JUST a beating? I could go on.

That's where the true ignorance lies. The refusal to accept that it has happened all over the world and it could happen here too. Not one of those countries thought it could happen to them, they didn't even realise it was happening in the beginning. It still did and it will happen again. Whether it'll be in the UK too no one knows. It is extremely ignorant though to claim it never will based simply on wishful thinking.

@ancientgran

Not everything that happened in WWII is about the Jews and I've been to Auschwitz too, doesn't give me or Starcup any special powers. What happened to them is truly awful but they weren't the only ones they came for, they also came for the disabled, the socialists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, gypsies and anyone who just happened to disagree with them. The Holocaust is generally used as a term to refer to the murder of six million Jews but the issue is bigger than that and Niemoller's word are appropriate to other horrors e.g. the Soviet regime that also killed millions.

However the International Jewish community feel the horror and tragedy of WWII is not their's alone.

Niemoller, who wrote First they came for, was not a Jew but he spent 7 years in a concentration camp. In his quoted speech he does not just speak of the Holocaust, he is speaking of the danger of ignoring things because they don't directly affect you which is what some of us are emphasising.

The point of "First they came for" is not that any step will automatically affect Jews (although as has been pointed out Jews will be one of the ethnic groups at risk from this proposed law change) or that it will lead to Auschwitz, the point is that if we ignore these steps they can lead to a totalitarian regime.

Stripping people of their nationality is nothing like covid rules.

I didn't say it was. I said the international Jewish community is currently begging people to stop comparing everything to the Holocaust.

Are you saying they shouldn't?

@RandomLondoner

You don't have to have citizenship somewhere, you just need to be eligible for it.

I have two genuine questions: is there always, in law, a distinction between being eligible for a citizenship and having it? And if so, can you not renounce your right to citizenship, in the same way you can renounce the citizenship?

(I was born abroad, and grew up thinking of myself as citizen of that country who could claim British Citizenship due to a British father, but when the time came, I discovered that being entitled to British citizenship by ancestry meant I had always been British, in law, and "applying" just meant proving this so I could get a passport.)

I think you are probably right that there will be cases where you cannot renounce another citizenship. But there will be cases where you can, so my post will still help some of those people. (I never thought it would be helpful to everyone, as of course some people genuinely won't want to lose their other citizenship.)

(I guess I know that there is sometimes a distinction in law between a right to apply and having citizenship, as I know from threads on here that you can have the right to a citizenship at birth which you lose if nothing has been done to cement your claim by the time you are an adult.)

I don't know how other countries view it but I know someone who married someone from another country and applied for citizenship when they moved to that country. The problem was she needed to renounced British citizenship as the country did not allow dual nationality. She talked to the British Embassy and they told her not to worry about it, she could renounced her British Citizenship but if she changed her mind and applied for a new passport she'd get one as they wouldn't enforce it.

I have no idea if the advice she got was correct but that was what she was told and when her marriage ended in divorce she did indeed get a new British passport.

Don't know how other countries would apply it.

I did know about this and also the law re protesting etc. It's terrible that important things thing like this can happen without anyone even noticing. All anyone cares about is what is on the bbc news or whatever.

Are you saying they shouldn't? No the Holocaust is generally used to refer to the murder of six million Jews so they can say what they want about it as far as I'm concerned.

I'm saying what the Nazis did wasn't just the Holocaust of the Jews and therefore what a Christian minister wrote/said is not their's to control.

It is people objecting to references to the Niemoller who are saying I and others were referring to the Holocaust but I don't think anyone did, they linked it to a quote referencing the dangers of ignoring something that doesn't, at the moment, affect them because step one can lead to step two and maybe step three.

Lots of people have posted that you don't have to worry about this if you don't commit a serious crime. I don't think you have to commit any crime though, the government just has to want you gone.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Shamima Begum has been convicted of anything in the UK? I know she's not a good example, as everyone sees her as guilty, but the point is, you don't need to be guilty of a crime to have citizenship revoked.

@wasthataburp

I did know about this and also the law re protesting etc. It's terrible that important things thing like this can happen without anyone even noticing. All anyone cares about is what is on the bbc news or whatever.

Or what affects them personally. I mean if I get deported to Ireland it won't be the end of me but if someone who is gay gets deported to Iran it might be the end of them, or if someone with one Chinese grandparent gets deported to China when they have no resources, can't speak the language and know nobody there it could be very disastrous for them. Let alone people who don't even get accepted by the relevant country. Where do they go? Are we going to have refugee camps somewhere for them?

As a person with disabilities I've been saying over the last few years that it is like living in 1930s Germany.

I see they are now going for other 'undesirables'.

As for, "It's only if you are a terrorist" I recommend Tom Sharpe's book set in South Africa.

Yes they are spoofs but based on the actual political situation.

It's a while since I read them but I remember someone arrested for 'terrorism - attempting to poison the drinking water' - they'd peed in a reservoir.

On the other hand the woman who tries to hand herself in for murdering her cook, the police tell her it isn't murder because the cook is black.

Actually you don't need to go as far as SA, have a look at the miner's strike and google Ricky Tomlinson.

@RandomLondoner

Lots of people have posted that you don't have to worry about this if you don't commit a serious crime. I don't think you have to commit any crime though, the government just has to want you gone.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Shamima Begum has been convicted of anything in the UK? I know she's not a good example, as everyone sees her as guilty, but the point is, you don't need to be guilty of a crime to have citizenship revoked.

I don't think she's been convicted of anything anywhere so your point is definitely correct.

The Niemoller quote is valid. He is making the point that you have to defend the rights of other people, including groups you don't agree with, if you want to protect those rights for yourself.

That you don't believe the UK government and their intentions are in the any way comparable with Nazi Germany is irrelevant, that wasn't the point.

I wonder how the British govt will react if other countries start doing the same? How many criminals in countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc have a British gran or granddad? Will we be welcoming them back?

@RandomLondoner

The Niemoller quote is valid. He is making the point that you have to defend the rights of other people, including groups you don't agree with, if you want to protect those rights for yourself.

That you don't believe the UK government and their intentions are in the any way comparable with Nazi Germany is irrelevant, that wasn't the point.

Much more succinct explanation. Thank you.

@PAFMO I lost not only members of my family but also masses amounts of family memorabilia and priceless heirlooms in the Holocaust. My family were not Jews but another group the Gestapo went after. I feel I am able to bring this up thank you.

Anywho, the general problem with bringing up the Holocaust everywhere is the constant victimisation of Jews and other minorities. People make this comparison in day to day troubles and it is very disrespectful. That's what they'd like to stop, as would I.
This however is something the Jewish community is also worried about! It effects everyone and together with the new policing bill, is very very frightening when you or your family have lived through these sorts of things before. It always always starts small. Neither of these bills are small.

My father was imprisoned and tortured by my government.

As a young child, I would have to get my sister's coats on and go my grandmother's house after government forces had wrecked my home and taken my parents away.

I was constantly harassed by government forces in my teens. But I didn't get it as bad as my male contemporaries who were subjected to violence and fitted up by my government.

30 years on and I still can't fly to mainland Britain without intrusive, time consuming, distressing for my children, security checks.

We are a law abiding family, I am a law abiding British citizen, all my grandparents and great grandparents were British, but our British government did this to us.

@TooBigForMyBoots

Your clearly not aware of the history of how Auschwitz concentration camp came into being *@Starcup*. It started with a wee law that disproportionately affected some people, including Jews. And sure nobody had to worry as long as they didn't do anything wrong.

Stop being so disrespectful by comparing it to one of the worst atrocities in history!

The international Jewish community is already begging people to stop comparing everything to the Holocaust. Anti-Semitism is on the rise and being fed still further by these lazy comparisons. Principally with regard to Covid and mandatory measures but it doesn't take a huge leap to extrapolate the ludicrous comparison here too. It really needs to stop. Please read what the international Jewish community leaders are saying about this

Absolutely this. Is disgusting that people continue to make the comparison. It’s an embarrassment and they should be ashamed of themselves for being so disrespectful.