To worry that I might lose my British citizenship one day because of the new law going through parliament?

[flashbac]

I was born here and so was one parent.

There is a Bill that has just been passed, while we were all distracted with shenanigans with parties and what not, that will allow citizenship to be revoked without notice.

I know the power to remove citizenship already exists but the without notice bit is quite scary. I assume that means someone could happily go about their business until they need to show right to be in the UK e.g new job or new rental and then poof, they can't access things and possibly get detained and then deported when they enquire about it and it's probably too late to contest it through the courts.

I know the responses will indicate how so many don't care, "don't do anything naughty then and they won't put you in the naughty bin ready to be turfed off to another land" but remember the right to protest, to give an example of how easy it will be to get on the wrong side of the authorities, will also be outlawed soon so anyone could be arrested, if the circumstances meant a person was driven to it, e.g you do a sit down protest outside a hospital because they covered up malpractice or, it's decided that a huge Amazon warehouse is built in the field behind your garden and you wanted to protest with your neighbours.

Lots of people will think this only affects 'foriners' so probably won't care. I think it's awful.

@TooBigForMyBoots

This bill is not a made up hypothetical situation, it is a big issue to be concerned about right now.

Did you protest about it on 1/1/1983 when the BNA 81 came into force containing exactly the same legislation?

So it states
"Deprivation of citizenship on ‘conducive to the public good’ grounds is reserved for those who pose a threat to the UK or whose conduct involves very high harm, for example in response to activities such as those involving:

national security including espionage and acts of terrorism
unacceptable behaviour such as the ‘glorification’ of terrorism
war crimes
and serious and organised crime"

Well that's a good thing from where I'm standing OP and if it applies to you, well good.

@DinosApple

This is a terrible piece of legislation. And far too woolly in terms of what can count to get your citizenship removed.

Extinction rebellion was listed as a terrorist group. Hardly in the same league really as terrorists who blow up people is it.

An unscrupulous government could use this legislation to remove 'inconvenient' people from the country. Environmental activists, political campaigners, etc.

Let's not pretend that governments are filled with people who stick to the rules, even the very clear ones that they make themselves!

It's much less woolly than the original BNA81 legislation which basically said "if we feel like it".

It seems daily we are edging towards becoming a fascist state!

Wtf!

As for the yabu voters not commenting I'm guessing not wanting to admit they're xenophobes/racists!

Which also applies to the govt! If they're so sure such a bill is right and fair then WHY ARE THEY HIDING IT AWAY?!

Same applies to the police and crime etc bill - it's an APPALLING bill clearly specifically designed to stifle ANY dissent at all!

I'm a Glaswegian and in the city centre are street preachers and protesters most days certainly weekends and they are part of our culture! This bill would criminalise those people who are basically harmless and often mentally ill.

Indeed it will criminalise ANYONE who publicly voiced dissent.

Quite honestly I don't think it will be long until there's a similar bill applying to electronic protests - like this forum!

It would give this obviously xenophobic govt the perfect EXCUSE to remove certain dissenters!

This is honestly getting more like a nazi or ussr type state we're living in! Terrifying!

I say all this as someone unlikely to be personally affected by the bill but who considers such laws outrageous and unacceptable and not what Britain stands for!

@gogohm but they're ALSO basically making it a crime to say anything negative about the govt or other "authorities" in public spaces!

On a separate bill they're also trying to keep as quiet as possible!

Though frankly whenever something like this comes up (and it's happening more and more frequently!) I keep finding myself thinking "what the actual fuck are our supposed journalists playing at?!" There seem to be only a few who are willingly sticking their necks out to alert us to the horror that is this govt! And none of the major media players have the balls to say anything!

Anyone notice the change in the petition responses? Over 100,000 will CONSIDER for a debate? I'm pretty sure it used to be it was definitely debated at that point ? Or a higher number? It's got over 200,000 signatures

People who say it won't apply to ordinary folk, they're all small steps to the same destination.

Exactly!

Just behave yourself and you’ll be fine!

Well "behave yourself" is rapidly becoming "never DARE to say anything critical about the uk or it's govt" do you seriously think that's acceptable in a supposed democracy!?!

Personally I think "it only matters if you have dual citizenship" is a callous, ignorant and xenophobic response!

Calls to mind (and I really don't care that I'm invoking Godwin's law TWICE in one post!) niemöllers poem.

I'm alright jack responses - shame on those if you that have said this!

The more they do this crap the more ashamed I am to be British! Bigoted arseholes!

@oatmilk4breakfast who are the best ones to write to in the lords on this? I have found this difficult to assess as lords don't have constituency areas like mps but it's best writing to the ones most likely to speak out and make a difference hopefully persuade others to reject awful bills like this

Don’t see the issue. You aren’t going to have your citizenship revoked for a parking fine are you?

Well aren't you LUCKY not to have a reason to be worried by this. I'm guessing you are white, at least 4th gen British and relatively well off?

I really wouldn't put that past this govt! Honestly. Esp if the person with the parking fine is also not white and especially if they're an outspoken activist

This is designed to silence dissenters!

We are allowing this govt to tell us how to THINK certainly how to express our thoughts!

Fuck me 1984 coming to life!

but this new law specifically relates to those who break the law particularly in relation to terrorism

They're REDEFINING terrorism with another bill too hardly a coincidence!

@Wannakisstheteacher do you SERIOUSLY think the holocaust happened out of the clear blue yonder?!

Of course it didn't!

The German govt GRADUALLY enacted various laws that were biased against certain groups esp Jews this was designed to make the population think they were "law breakers" "anti German" etc which over time made it easier and easier to demonise, vilify... and then massacre them!

Deeply insulting and offensive post to Jews and others massacred in the holocaust that you can't or rather won't understand that

How far on the road to fascism and dictatorship do we need to be before calling it out for what it is?

Exactly!

Discrimination by the state doesn't happen overnight! It's a boiling frog situation

Anti terrorism laws have been being abused since they came in! And I'm not just talking post 9/11 they've been used against those of Irish descent, those campaigning for nuclear disarmament, those campaigning for animal rights... the history of this happening in the uk goes WAY back

"You've nothing to worry about if you've done nothing wrong"

Guildford 4
Judith ward
Winston silcott
Birmingham 6...

And that's just fairly recent history!

Yea the British have a GREAT history of unbiased justice system and terrorism and how they treat dissenters NOT!

Not everything you dislike can be compared to the Holocaust.

No but in this case it is ABSOLUTELY appropriate!

This is a way of othering and denigrating people who aren't at least 4th gen British! How is that ok?! How is that not a fascist attitude?!

Nobody is saying the conclusion (the holocaust) will be the same but the dehumanisation of people ('cockroaches', let them drown' etc) has already started happening so it's only right to learn lessons from the past and feel concerned about it. Nobody is making light of the holocaust here.

Exactly

The power for them to revoke citizenship has already been enshrined in law but now they want to do it WITHOUT NOTICE which begs the question: why? So you can't contest it that's why.

No truly democratic legal system should ever have such a law

The right of reply is KEY in a democracy

@LiterallyKnowsBest I honestly wouldn't blame any of you! Why should you remain and work and contribute and pay taxes when you are treated like this!

Wondering if you could all organise a strike? That could prove interesting say the first main day back to work after the Christmas and Hogmanay break the first Monday perhaps drive home how valuable you are to this country! All the 1st to 3rd gens who are healthcare workers, teachers, transport workers, retail workers etc I think it would be quite something!

Did you watch the original Shameless? Frank says a version of what you said about how if every immigrant downed tools for 1 day, the entire system and country would fall apart. Your both absolutely right.

I've not seen this show as didn't think it was my sense of humour I may try it now!

Frank is bloody right! Britain is BUILT on immigrants and their descendants.

I'm 4th generation 3 of my great grandparents being Irish. The 4th of Nordic descent we believe

I'm old so I remember Adrian mole and in one of those books I remember he was talking to a Tory Mp who was standing for "send them all back home" crap and Adrian apparently or it might have been his dad calculated that if everyone in Britain who wasn't pure Anglo Saxon blood left there'd be one person left!!

Well I’m pretty sure you could go to the European courts of human rights not any more!

or British courts of humans rights….

No such thing

Sarcasm? Can't tell

OK I'll make it about you. We the government/local police/whoever in authority have decided you could be a potential terrorist based on your accent. Nothing else, just accent. So 6 armed men can hold you by your throat off the ground against a wall and have loaded guns against many bits of you while screaming abuse and threats. Are you thinking about that? Because that's one of many MANY examples of what bollocks happens when they can use the "it's only to stop terrorists" reasoning.

@RuggerHug

OK I'll make it about you. We the government/local police/whoever in authority have decided you could be a potential terrorist based on your accent. Nothing else, just accent. So 6 armed men can hold you by your throat off the ground against a wall and have loaded guns against many bits of you while screaming abuse and threats. Are you thinking about that? Because that's one of many MANY examples of what bollocks happens when they can use the "it's only to stop terrorists" reasoning.

Again, that was to starcup, bloody quote function hates me.

@MurielSpriggs

They are saying if your have parents/grandparents who have come to the UK from other countries, they will send you there.

They can only do that (legally) if you have dual nationality based on that ancestry. For example, if you have an Irish parent then you're an Irish citizen, whether you realise it or not, and regardless of whether you've ever set foot in Ireland.

No it's all about having the RIGHT to dual citizenship rather than actually having it...

So for many countries this includes having a grandparent from there.

Can people on this thread just be honest - people don't care because it will only be used against non white people. It's all very typical and in line with previous actions of this government

@MissCruellaDeVil

Where would they deport someone born in the U.K.? They wouldn't have citizenship anywhere else either...

This thread is showing how clueless and ignorant the average person is!

I'm struggling to see where the talk of the Holocaust came into this but it might be appropriate to mention that anyone with even a single Jewish grandparent qualifies for Israeli citizenship and could therefore theoretically have their British citizenship stripped from them without becoming 'stateless'.

Within my father's lifetime the British Army were fighting against Jewish 'terrorists', some of whom were British citizens, who'd travelled to Palestine to carry out 'terrorism' in much the same way as British citizens have recently travelled to Syria/Iraq/Libya etc.

@Graphista- i dont think many people have thought about the police and crime bill and how it combines with this one. I feel sick when i see how much they are trying to limit any form of dissent. They are also trying to stop judicial review (where courts point out something the government has done is illegal) . Not very long ago I was marching up and down a highstreet with a placard shouting 'Spend on SEND'. Would my fellow marchers be at risk of being deported with these wooly bits of legislation combined.

@goldfinchfan

Thye are can't take away citizenship from people without a right to live in another country......they cannot make people "stateless"

Shamima is effectively stateless because she can't return to the U.K and Pakistan (which she has never been a citizen of but would technically be eligible to apply for citizenship in due her grandparent) has already confirmed they are not willing to accept her... so yes, she is effectively stateless right now

@FatFredsFriedEgg not just Jewish grandparent, even being married to a Jew qualifies you for Aliyah. But it's not quite the same as Israeli citizenship, it allows you to settle in Israel, where you will then apply for citizenship. But they don't give out passports at Tel Aviv airport.

I am Jewish and I don't think it's quite the same as the Holocaust but it does create a 'hostile environment' for minorities where being othered is normalized. It does pave the way for a far right government to take over if the Tories lose power and they may truly be capable of concentration camp. Or in British fashion, the far right may actually take over the Tory party. I would say that with the chaos today and if the economy does go bust due to years of covid lockdowns and brexit, the cumulative anger of many may mean they vote in a far more radical candidate than Boris or Trump. The Jews were full citizens in Germany for years and had been largely emacipated for years but the Great depression meant many Germans were looking for a scapegoat. A lot of economists and historians think the 2020s are a repeat of the 1930s and we all know what came after that...

Suppose it depends if you’re intending to commit serious crimes or not.

People who think this (and all the other baby steps) is nothing should read a bit of history.

The Nazi's were voted into power and had mass support, their actions were a series of small steps. The people who supported them were just like us, they weren't monsters, they were probably very nice and made lovely, do anything for you, neighbours . They just wanted a better life for their children and to feel safer and the (as they saw it) unfairness in life, corrected.

@Nyz9213

Suppose it depends if you’re intending to commit serious crimes or not.

I am truly appalled by the above and other comments made on this thread who cannot see the problem with this proposed bill.

Are 3 out of 10 British citizens really okay with the idea of 2-tier citizenship?

Having First Class and Second Class citizenship for different kinds of Brits?

Being treated differently under the law, depending on your families origins?

Knowing that most of the Second Class Brits will be non-whites?

I am hoping that most of those who clicked on YABU did not really think this through. Because if they did and still approve of this bill, it is truly frightening.

@Nyz9213

Suppose it depends if you’re intending to commit serious crimes or not.

Well it will partly depend on what the Government classes as a serious crime. I wouldn't be surprised if that there are some who think that demonstrating peacefully against the Government is serious enough to warrant a loss of citizenship.

Suppose it depends if you’re intending to commit serious crimes or not

And if you're not deemed foreign.

@Nyz9213

Suppose it depends if you’re intending to commit serious crimes or not.

Can you guarantee 100% what will be considered a serious crime in 5 years? 10? 20? 50? Can you guarantee 100% that no mistakes or fuckups will be made? That no government or Secretary of State or whatever paper stamper will use this to further their own agenda?

@TooBigForMyBoots

Don’t be so OTT dramatic. Do you think it’s about you? And the average law abiding citizen? Don’t be ridiculous.

Any average law abiding citizen can find itself under suspicion, this bill is broad enough to cover that. Also, the government don't have to tell you!🤯 You could go on holiday and come back to find your citizenship stripped from you and barred from entering your own country.😲😲😲

This is so true. I worked for a large police force in the 70s/80s. I happened to work in an office that was on the same corridor as the Anti Terrorist Squad. I have dual nationality, British/Irish, I had a name that was easily identified as Irish. I have ginger hair and freckles and many people will say I look Irish.

So one of the women I worked with took me aside one day to tell me that an officer from ATS had been asking questions about me. He thought it was "suspicious" that I'd applied for a job on that corridor and he'd seen me in certain Irish clubs known for IRA affiliations.

I was horrified, when I applied for an admin job I had no idea where it would be in a multi storey building, I was a young mum and rarely went out as I couldn't afford it and didn't have childcare and finally I'd never been in an Irish club. I married as a teenager, my husband was English, I am teetotal and going to a drinking club didn't appeal to me. I've never been in a nightclub and generally the only pubs I've been in area steak houses where I've had a meal but the point was he told people he'd seen me in those clubs which was not true.

I applied for a transfer and went to work in a police station local to me but I have no idea what that officer did, he might have been watching me, he might have investigated my background but whatever he suspected me of was based on nothing.

For all I know there is a file on me somewhere containing his "evidence" and his suspicions.

@Kendodd

People who think this (and all the other baby steps) is nothing should read a bit of history.

The Nazi's were voted into power and had mass support, their actions were a series of small steps. The people who supported them were just like us, they weren't monsters, they were probably very nice and made lovely, do anything for you, neighbours . They just wanted a better life for their children and to feel safer and the (as they saw it) unfairness in life, corrected.

Yes. This.

Did you protest about it on 1/1/1983 when the BNA 81 came into force containing exactly the same legislation?

In 1983 I was 10 years old and already aware that my government considered me and my completely law abiding family troublemakers. I wasn't allowed to go to protests in 1983 in case I was detained or killed by the government.

@Graphista

It seems daily we are edging towards becoming a fascist state!

Wtf!

As for the yabu voters not commenting I'm guessing not wanting to admit they're xenophobes/racists!

Which also applies to the govt! If they're so sure such a bill is right and fair then WHY ARE THEY HIDING IT AWAY?!

Same applies to the police and crime etc bill - it's an APPALLING bill clearly specifically designed to stifle ANY dissent at all!

I'm a Glaswegian and in the city centre are street preachers and protesters most days certainly weekends and they are part of our culture! This bill would criminalise those people who are basically harmless and often mentally ill.

Indeed it will criminalise ANYONE who publicly voiced dissent.

Quite honestly I don't think it will be long until there's a similar bill applying to electronic protests - like this forum!

It would give this obviously xenophobic govt the perfect EXCUSE to remove certain dissenters!

This is honestly getting more like a nazi or ussr type state we're living in! Terrifying!

I say all this as someone unlikely to be personally affected by the bill but who considers such laws outrageous and unacceptable and not what Britain stands for!

@gogohm but they're ALSO basically making it a crime to say anything negative about the govt or other "authorities" in public spaces!

On a separate bill they're also trying to keep as quiet as possible!

Though frankly whenever something like this comes up (and it's happening more and more frequently!) I keep finding myself thinking "what the actual fuck are our supposed journalists playing at?!" There seem to be only a few who are willingly sticking their necks out to alert us to the horror that is this govt! And none of the major media players have the balls to say anything!

Anyone notice the change in the petition responses? Over 100,000 will CONSIDER for a debate? I'm pretty sure it used to be it was definitely debated at that point ? Or a higher number? It's got over 200,000 signatures

People who say it won't apply to ordinary folk, they're all small steps to the same destination.

Exactly!

Just behave yourself and you’ll be fine!

Well "behave yourself" is rapidly becoming "never DARE to say anything critical about the uk or it's govt" do you seriously think that's acceptable in a supposed democracy!?!

Personally I think "it only matters if you have dual citizenship" is a callous, ignorant and xenophobic response!

Calls to mind (and I really don't care that I'm invoking Godwin's law TWICE in one post!) niemöllers poem.

I'm alright jack responses - shame on those if you that have said this!

The more they do this crap the more ashamed I am to be British! Bigoted arseholes!

@oatmilk4breakfast who are the best ones to write to in the lords on this? I have found this difficult to assess as lords don't have constituency areas like mps but it's best writing to the ones most likely to speak out and make a difference hopefully persuade others to reject awful bills like this

Don’t see the issue. You aren’t going to have your citizenship revoked for a parking fine are you?

Well aren't you LUCKY not to have a reason to be worried by this. I'm guessing you are white, at least 4th gen British and relatively well off?

I really wouldn't put that past this govt! Honestly. Esp if the person with the parking fine is also not white and especially if they're an outspoken activist

This is designed to silence dissenters!

We are allowing this govt to tell us how to THINK certainly how to express our thoughts!

Fuck me 1984 coming to life!

but this new law specifically relates to those who break the law particularly in relation to terrorism

They're REDEFINING terrorism with another bill too hardly a coincidence!

@Wannakisstheteacher do you SERIOUSLY think the holocaust happened out of the clear blue yonder?!

Of course it didn't!

The German govt GRADUALLY enacted various laws that were biased against certain groups esp Jews this was designed to make the population think they were "law breakers" "anti German" etc which over time made it easier and easier to demonise, vilify... and then massacre them!

Deeply insulting and offensive post to Jews and others massacred in the holocaust that you can't or rather won't understand that

How far on the road to fascism and dictatorship do we need to be before calling it out for what it is?

Exactly!

Discrimination by the state doesn't happen overnight! It's a boiling frog situation

Anti terrorism laws have been being abused since they came in! And I'm not just talking post 9/11 they've been used against those of Irish descent, those campaigning for nuclear disarmament, those campaigning for animal rights... the history of this happening in the uk goes WAY back

"You've nothing to worry about if you've done nothing wrong"

Guildford 4
Judith ward
Winston silcott
Birmingham 6...

And that's just fairly recent history!

Yea the British have a GREAT history of unbiased justice system and terrorism and how they treat dissenters NOT!

Not everything you dislike can be compared to the Holocaust.

No but in this case it is ABSOLUTELY appropriate!

This is a way of othering and denigrating people who aren't at least 4th gen British! How is that ok?! How is that not a fascist attitude?!

Nobody is saying the conclusion (the holocaust) will be the same but the dehumanisation of people ('cockroaches', let them drown' etc) has already started happening so it's only right to learn lessons from the past and feel concerned about it. Nobody is making light of the holocaust here.

Exactly

The power for them to revoke citizenship has already been enshrined in law but now they want to do it WITHOUT NOTICE which begs the question: why? So you can't contest it that's why.

No truly democratic legal system should ever have such a law

The right of reply is KEY in a democracy

@LiterallyKnowsBest I honestly wouldn't blame any of you! Why should you remain and work and contribute and pay taxes when you are treated like this!

Wondering if you could all organise a strike? That could prove interesting say the first main day back to work after the Christmas and Hogmanay break the first Monday perhaps drive home how valuable you are to this country! All the 1st to 3rd gens who are healthcare workers, teachers, transport workers, retail workers etc I think it would be quite something!

Did you watch the original Shameless? Frank says a version of what you said about how if every immigrant downed tools for 1 day, the entire system and country would fall apart. Your both absolutely right.

I've not seen this show as didn't think it was my sense of humour I may try it now!

Frank is bloody right! Britain is BUILT on immigrants and their descendants.

I'm 4th generation 3 of my great grandparents being Irish. The 4th of Nordic descent we believe

I'm old so I remember Adrian mole and in one of those books I remember he was talking to a Tory Mp who was standing for "send them all back home" crap and Adrian apparently or it might have been his dad calculated that if everyone in Britain who wasn't pure Anglo Saxon blood left there'd be one person left!!

Well I’m pretty sure you could go to the European courts of human rights not any more!

or British courts of humans rights….

No such thing

Sarcasm? Can't tell

*As for the yabu voters not commenting I'm guessing not wanting to admit they're xenophobes/racists*

Oh please, the same old argument. It really is getting boring now.

And I think it’s beyond disgusting when people suggest it’s similar to the Holocaust. That’s absolutely atrocious and shouldn’t ever be brought up in the same sentence for god sake. Disgusting.

Oh please, the same old argument. It really is getting boring now.

And I think it’s beyond disgusting when people suggest it’s similar to the Holocaust. That’s absolutely atrocious and shouldn’t ever be brought up in the same sentence for god sake. Disgusting.*

You should have a wee look at history and how the Holocaust came about @Starcup.

Did you protest about it on 1/1/1983 when the BNA 81 came into force containing exactly the same legislation?

No, as I was a child and, circumstances were different then. In any case, there was always the right to appeal. This won't apply going forward as no information or even notice will be given before they take away your citizenship.

I may have a solution for people worried about this, though it won't suit everyone. Renounce your foreign citizenship first. It's true that they can't deprive you of citizenship if you don't have another to fall back on.

(Shamima Begum is a controversial case that is atypical. I think what happened is that she potentially had two citizenships, but had to actively claim one by a certain age, and they cancelled her British citizenship just in time to beat the cut-off. So she may have ended up stateless, but she wasn't made stateless at the price moment her British citizenship was removed, therefore it wasn't unlawful. I think it was effectively Bangladesh's age cut-off for claiming citizenship that ultimately rendered her stateless, in a scenario that the law-makers had not anticipated.)