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To think the anti-lockdown brigade have been proved right?
393

Libertaire · 08/12/2021 19:34

We were told that if we all got vaccinated life would return to normal, and that process would be ‘cautious but irreversible’. So we complied. I am triple-jabbed and extremely grateful for the work of the brilliant scientists who made this possible.

Yet now, we are heading inexorably back into another lockdown. The fear mongering is being ratcheted up day by day. If this was ever about public health, it cannot be now because everyone who is vulnerable to covid has been offered at least two doses of vaccine.

We surrendered our freedoms willingly, to protect ourselves and one another and because we believed that we would get them back. But that isn’t happening, is it? An authoritarian government has confiscated them permanently and we will never get them back until we take them back, which is what anti-lockdown campaigners said from the start. They have been proved right, haven’t they?

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Am I being unreasonable?

AIBU

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Unsure33 · 09/12/2021 07:53

It makes me laugh that you all talk as if the uk is the only country with problems and restrictions and governments that are struggling . You should do some research on how other countries like italy , Germany and czek republic are all having problems and more restrictions than us . Blame blame blame as if this was a political football and not a pandemic .

We are not on lockdown
If the virus mutation is weaker then we can think again
We are not all lemmings and there are plenty of people on here who had no intention of following the rules anyway , but I don’t care who they are I try and follow the science and people like Whitty , not the media who are the pits or internet “ experts”

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Grannycurls · 09/12/2021 08:13

@gofg

Why do people think the government want lockdown? What's in it for them?

The opportunity to drive people so demented with it all that they'll accept privatisation of the NHS as the price of getting out of this

Okay - even if you are right ( Hmm), could you please explain to us all why it is that there have been lockdowns in many other countries. Is that all about the NHS as well?? Confused

I'm in another country looking at our government and trying to see them as these crazy power hungry people that so many on MN seem to believe all governments are - just not seeing it really.

Australia. New Zealand. Austria. Germany.
They all have their reasons.


Meanwhile, a propos "Conspiracy Theory", how would you rate this conversation between a few power players? The hearing took place in October 2019 at the Milken Institute Future of Health Summit in the USA. The video is online, though not on YouTube as many platforms have been scrubbed. You can see them actually talking. You can find it with a search. I have made a transcript of some key pronouncements.

"October 2019

Michael Specter (New Yorker Staff Writer): why don’t we blow the system up? I mean, we just can’t just turnoff the spigot on the system we now have and then say hey, everyone in the world should get this new vaccine we haven’t given to anyone yet.. but there must be some way that we grow vaccines most likely in eggs, the way we did in 1947.
......
Anthony Fauci: In order to make the transition from getting out of the transition from the tried and true egg-growing, which we know gives us results that can be, you know, beneficial, we’ve done well with that, to something that has to be much better, you have to prove that this works, and then you gotta go through all of the clinical trials. Phase 1s, phase 2s, phase 3s, and then prove that this particular product is going to be good over a period of years. That alone, if it works perfectly, is going to take a decade.

Rick Bright (HNS Biomedical Advanced Research & Development Authority Director):
There might be a need, or even an urgent call for an entity of excitement out there, that’s completely disruptive. That’s not beholden to bureaucratic strings and processes.

Fauci: So we really do have a problem of how the world perceives influenza and it’s going to be very difficult to change that unless you do it from within and say, we don’t care what your perception is, we’re going to address the problem in a disruptive way and in an (????) way because you do need both.

Rick Bright: But it is not too crazy to think that an outbreak of a novel avian virus could occur in China somewhere. We could get the RNA sequence from that, beam it to a number of regional centres, if not local, if not even in your home at some point, and print those vaccines on a patch to self-administer."



These people seem to be almost prophetic in their pronouncements!
Food for thought. It's OK to think and reconsider one's stance in the light of alternative theories. It's even healthy to do so.
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GaolBhoAlba · 09/12/2021 08:35

I really resent the ignorance around restrictions. People pat themselves on the back (god, theres been SO much of that this past 2 years) that restrictions are the right way to go 'even if' its precautionary, 'even if' we're overreacting - we're all in it together (another wee pat) after all.

Restrictions are harmful; catastrophically so for many, many people. For every elderly life we've saved, another has been lost, habitually in a miserable, lonely, isolated manner. Restrictions are sold as the obvious 'no harm done' solution, however anyone capable of looking beyond the end of their own nose (undeniably, difficult to do whilst patting yourself on the back) knows they're anything but.

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JaniieJones · 09/12/2021 09:00

'The government don’t want lockdowns- ruins the economy. People don’t want lockdowns - ruins everyone’s lives. '

Exactly. This narrative we have all over sm and msm as if the 'rules' are to control us rather than necessary public health precautions is ridiculous.

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Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/12/2021 09:02

What a load of absolute rubbish. Some of us actually believe our governments have our best interests at heart (mind you, those governments are not the 'do as I say, not as I do' type as you seem to have in the UK). Why do I want to 'see SAGE minutes' - SAGE has nothing whatsoever to do with other countries?

You appear very trusting, gofg; obviously I don't know where your particular government is, but here's hoping you don't come to regret it

And no, SAGE has nothing to do with other countries, which is why I said that I can't speak for those of which I have no experience. Their referred-to strategy is, however, an example of just what measures are considered acceptable to influence the UK population, and I'd be genuinely surprised if these are completely absent elsewhere

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JaniieJones · 09/12/2021 09:04

'Restrictions are harmful; catastrophically so for many, many people'

We know that. However, as Chris Whitty has patiently explained omicron is doubling at an alarming rate and even with vaccinations that may still mean an increase in hospitalisations as indeed they have seen in South Africa.

So caution is needed. Remember last year everyone bleated on 'they saw what happened in Italy why didn't they act sooner', well now they're acting sooner!! That is a good thing.

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frazzledali · 09/12/2021 09:27

This only ends when WE say it ends.

Love it when people say this about a virus.

We seem to have leapt straight back into the binary WE'RE LOCKING DOWN FIGHT IT YOU SHEEPLE/WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE YOU SELFISH LOONS conversations. Batshit conspiracy theories aside, most people are sensible enough to realise that we're dealing with a medium to long term situation with a novel virus and so it'll be a changing situation and we don't have to riot in the streets against public health measures. Obviously some people will go out and rage against it all. Well, we - for the moment at least - live in a country where protest is protected so might as well enjoy that while you still can.

Meanwhile the vast majority will grumble a bit and get on with the very minor inconveniences put upon us. Cold on a bus? Fucking hell, call the papers.

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Lorriestakingppe · 09/12/2021 09:35

(which I note we're now referring to as plan B to avoid the L word

Er, that'll be because it's not lockdown Hmm

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GoldenOmber · 09/12/2021 10:17

This only ends when WE say it ends.

Love it when people say this about a virus.

They’re not saying it about the virus, though. I think most people are well aware by now that the virus isn’t going to ‘end’ ever.

So either we continue with restrictions forever, or we move to a point where we end current restrictions even though the virus is still out there. There is not going to be massive public support for the first option. So… when does it end, in that case? Because if you’re telling people they’re wrong to say “it ends when there is no more public support for it”, what other end criteria do you envision and why do you think that’s any more likely?

When we have vaccines? Clearly not.
When we have vaccinated the vulnerable? Nope, way past that.
When we have double-vaccinated everyone who wants it? Again, we’ve gone past that.

So… ‘when everyone who wants a booster has had one’? Maybe? But I don’t see why people would believe that’s going to happen, really.

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Peaseblossum22 · 09/12/2021 11:24

It’s interesting that what no one is yet acknowledging , because it’s going to cost money and involve challenging vested interests , is that rather than locking down to contain cases every year ad infinitum we will need to expand our health system to cope with the new normal. Otherwise every winter we will be subject to restrictions, not because the vast majority are in danger from the virus but because our health service is inadequate and cannot cope with what is now the new normal.

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Pumperthepumper · 09/12/2021 13:32

@Peaseblossum22

It’s interesting that what no one is yet acknowledging , because it’s going to cost money and involve challenging vested interests , is that rather than locking down to contain cases every year ad infinitum we will need to expand our health system to cope with the new normal. Otherwise every winter we will be subject to restrictions, not because the vast majority are in danger from the virus but because our health service is inadequate and cannot cope with what is now the new normal.

Sorry, what? Nobody is saying we need to put money into the NHS? Where have you been?
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CrumpledCrumpet · 09/12/2021 14:03

When does it end? It doesn’t actually end, ever. On some level we will always be dealing with it.

No-one says “when are we going to stop having to get an annual flu shot?” “When are we going to have to stop covering our mouths when we cough?”.

We have to take mitigations to avoid illness all the time. Admittedly over the last 18 months we have had to take WAY more than usual. Over time they should reduce, but I can well see some aspects of this becoming ‘normal’ and a minor inconvenience we just have to live with.

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doublemonkey · 09/12/2021 14:12

[quote Nancydrawn]Um, the actual Great Reset was about creating "green growth, smarter growth and fairer growth" through massive investment in developing countries and green technology. It was about resetting away from late stage capitalism towards a more just and verdant world. It was largely bullshit in a kind of greenwashing/justicewashing kind of way, but it was benign.

QAnon and Infowars have started a massive conspiracy theory that this is about controlling the world economy. Here is a very useful analysis: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/04/great-reset-capitalism-became-anti-lockdown-conspiracy[/quote]
You will own nothing, and you will be happy.

That's the plan. Bad for me cos I won't even own any tinfoil. 😟

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doublemonkey · 09/12/2021 14:28

@CrumpledCrumpet

When does it end? It doesn’t actually end, ever. On some level we will always be dealing with it.

No-one says “when are we going to stop having to get an annual flu shot?” “When are we going to have to stop covering our mouths when we cough?”.

We have to take mitigations to avoid illness all the time. Admittedly over the last 18 months we have had to take WAY more than usual. Over time they should reduce, but I can well see some aspects of this becoming ‘normal’ and a minor inconvenience we just have to live with.

Link to an article about the US changing the definition of 'fully vaccinated' to mean 3 shots.

Fauci announcment

Also in the same article, someone working on the new Pfizer shot for Omricon saying that it will definitely be a three shot treatment. Just to be clear that's 3 new shots.

When will it end? It will only end when we say we've had enough of this farce.
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RandomLondoner · 09/12/2021 14:38

If there is another lockdown, it will be because there's effectively a new virus. It won't be proof that what we've done has been a waste. On the contrary, that fact that what we've done to defeat the original virus has worked means that we know what we need to do for the new one.

Now I know you are thinking, what if there's a new virus every two years. Well, as far as we know, the old vaccine is of some effect against the new virus, and likely many of the treatments will work, because they don't care about the mutation. So the problem will probably be less severe each time, until we don't need lockdowns any more.

Having said that, even if new viruses aren't less impactful, we don't have a choice not to take countermeasures. It's not a reasonable option to let several hundred thousand people die each time, at home without treatment since NHS can't take them, instead of reducing deaths to the order of a mere hundred thousand using lockdowns and new vaccines.

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fournonblondes · 09/12/2021 14:38

@Lockheart

that process would be ‘cautious but irreversible’.

If you ever truly believed that then you're either irredeemably thick or naive. Pick one. Even a child should know that viruses don't act according to the rules made by politicians.

Since you think you are so clever to call people thick may be explain what would happen if only the richest countries get vaccinated?

You disgusting tbh
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ThePenIsBlue · 09/12/2021 14:40

This will not end until people stop. For example, I will never take another Covid test, and nor will my family or my parents. If we feel ill, we will act like we’ve always acted when ill. Stay in if we feel like it, go out if we feel like it. Why on earth people are still testing like mad people is beyond me. We have a nation of mostly vaccinated people. Those who are paranoid won’t go into theatres or cinemas. I have friends who sneezed, so took 4 lateral flow tests, all negative, and then a PCR that came back positive. So they are now in an enforced isolation when they don’t feel that bad at all. Why people are engaging in this madness is beyond me. People are always going to die of something. Covid is the least of most people’s worries…..

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RandomLondoner · 09/12/2021 14:43

When will it end? It will only end when we say we've had enough of this farce.

Lockdowns will end when they no longer needed to save hundreds of thousands of lives. Hopefully we are past that point already, but if not, it's not impossible to carry on having some forms of restrictions forever.

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fournonblondes · 09/12/2021 14:56

@lisaandalan

The trouble is not everyone has been vaccinated, which is their choice but because of this, the virus will keep mutating and even though the vaccinated will not get as Ill as the unvaccinated, we will keep spreading it around because of the number of non vaccinated it gives the virus chance to keep getting stronger.

Bingo, yes developing countries are not getting vaccines. If that is the case. The new variants takes very little to arrive here where there influx from all over the world is high. So when will it end?
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OneTC · 09/12/2021 14:57

If the anti lockdown crew had got what they wanted from the start then our already shocking death toll would be significantly higher so no, I cannot say that they were right all along, or ever

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GoldenOmber · 09/12/2021 15:13

it's not impossible to carry on having some forms of restrictions forever.

Good luck with that…

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Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/12/2021 15:47

... someone working on the new Pfizer shot for Omricon saying that it will definitely be a three shot treatment. Just to be clear that's 3 new shots

Fascinating - so if people have already had all three existing shots (or a fourth if CEV) that'll be six or seven jabs and counting

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megustalacerveza · 09/12/2021 16:10

@Justcallmebebes

All those saying "what lock down?" Just wait

Right? The naivety is unbelievable.
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Rummikub · 09/12/2021 16:19

But right now this isn’t a lockdown.

I doubt the govt want a Lockdown as it’s damaging to the economy. I see this as a small measure to buy a bit of time while they see the impact.

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megustalacerveza · 09/12/2021 16:50

@MarshaBradyo

I have lived in other countries,where the health service with covid is coping much better.

We’ve had high case numbers which would strain most health systems. Where are you talking about?

And why is that???!!! Most countries didn't abandon masks and all mitigations, trying to pretend covid was over.
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