Labour are shite. Discuss

[Effibreast]

Stock answer to defend the tories is 'Labour are shite, Keir Starmer is rubbish, there's no opposition'.

I'm not sure it's Labour who think 'you people are scum.

I've been called scum and a bigot a number of times by Labour party supporters, members and even local councillors. I was called "Tory scum" earlier today by another poster on here earlier today (and I'm not even a Tory!)

Have you honestly not seen Labour people running this country down and calling it a racist shit hole. The vitriol towards the people of Hartlepool for daring to vote Conservative was something to behold.

Granted, Labour MPs are a bit better behaved than those lower down the hierachy, but a number of them are quick to label people bigots for having different views. Or calling the Tories scum.

I think that a lot of this shitty attitude is down to Momentum. Momentum I think has had quite a large part to play in Labour's downfall - the angry, shouty, name-calling behaviour and the Identity Politics. I had hopes that Kier would sort them out, but he hasn't.

FOJN if you knew anything about the police, crime and sentencing bill and proposed backdoor amendments, you would be worried about the possible curtailment of everybody's democratic right to protest with some of the most oppressive legislation since the war.

Is there a reason you think I don't know about this or are you indulging in a bit of whatabouttery?

I'd recommend writing to your MP or better yet meeting them in their constituency surgery to discuss your concerns. It doesn't matter if you don't like them and didn't vote for them, they work for you.

ScreamingMeMe

Have you honestly not seen Labour people running this country down and calling it a racist shit hole. The vitriol towards the people of Hartlepool for daring to vote Conservative was something to behold. '

I think you have selective hearing.

You see, I hear people on the Right pulling this country down all the time.

Apparently we're 'overrun with immigrants', there are 'no go areas' in the U.K., 'all our politicians are lying sociopaths', our modern culture is shit, our cities are shit ...

I could go on.

And I always say: The U.K. has a proud history of democracy and tolerance - let's be proud of that and cherish if; our cities are world class and remarkably safe; our social and legal systems are remarkably free of corruption (you don't have to pay solicitors under the table when you buy a house; you don't have to pay a bung to the electrician or local dignitary to get connected to mains electricity) - I am bloody grateful for that, let's keep it that way; our universities are world-class ...

I could go on.

And, yes, there are people on the Left who run down the U.K.

But I'm not so blinded by ideology that I choose only to hear them.

And, similarly, I'm wise enough to know that the people on the Right continually spreading lies, misinformation and fear about the U.K. - running the U.K. down - aren't the only voices.

As I keep on saying, the reason Johnson grieves me so very, very, very much is precisely because I love the U.K. and I don't just believe, I know, we deserve better.

So are Labour actually scum?

[quote Effibreast]**@FOJN* if you knew anything about the police, crime and sentencing bill and proposed backdoor amendments, you would be worried about the possible curtailment of everybody's* democratic right to protest with some of the most oppressive legislation since the war.[/quote]
www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-factsheets/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-protest-powers-factsheet

Which part of this is oppressive enough to draw your hyperbole?

I reached peak trans a couple of years ago and was swayed a lot by MN posters on how womens rights were being threatened by TRAs to the point I got into a massive argument one Christmas Day with my ‘right on’ DB and DH over it who accused me of being an anti trans bigot for expressing my concerns.

However, recently I’ve started to peel back the other way ironically also by MN. This is because not matter the topic, some posters have to turn it to a trans debate. It’s obsessive and is starting to feel very uncomfortable and sinister. There are some posters who will side with anyone or cause no matter how nasty if that person or cause is anti trans.

You have a government engaging in culture wars, putting minority lives under threat, ruining industries, cutting back welfare, large scale corruption . Things that statistically negatively impact women the most but none of this matters because ‘at least Boris knows what a woman is’.

These are the same type of voters like Susan Sarandon who refused to vote for Hilary because she wasn’t pro-woman enough, allowing Trump to win so he could pack the Supreme Court with anti-abortionist Gilead wannabes.

This bullshit does real damage to women not a few nutty TRAs which nobody in real life would mistake for women. No laws would ever be passed to erase women. I’m totally over this anti-trans shit. I can’t be the only one who’s changed their views and become more disturbed by the zealots on MN.

Starmer as PM?

If he ever had to have an idea or a plan rather than just aimlessly criticise he'd not have a word to say.

He makes me wince.

Fuck off, Putin

Well clearly they are hence why they haven't got in and many people won't vote for them regardless

I wouldn’t vote Labour because 1. Momentum. They have Starmer in as the “acceptable face” of the party but Momentum are still on the scene 2. I can’t accept Labours stance on identity politics. As a mum to a little girl I can’t vote for a party that does not uphold her right to safe space and identity as a woman.

@FOJN that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for explaining. I don’t think I could “hold my nose” and vote Tory because I live in an area where the genuinely life-threatening impact of Tory policy on the poor and vulnerable is evident every single day. We also have an ongoing family situation which is a direct result of Tory policy and cuts. But I can understand your viewpoint and it’s something to think about.

What a fucking dismal choice to be faced with.

Its absolutely laughable (if it wasn't so tragic and damaging) seeing the Tories as caring about womens rights.
How many women did Tory austerity kill? 70,000?
Have you seen the convicted rates for rape under the Tories? They might have well as legalised it through there cuts to the CPS and policing.
And as for male bodied people held in women's prisons and the huge increase in trans children. This has happened under the TORIES ffs.

You know, that whole Brexit period was ... strange. Both Labour and the Conservatives changed. Became more ideological.
But Labour are moving away from that.

The Conservatives really aren't. Not at the moment.

I think the Conservative Party is still in a kind of hostage situation to a minority who have taken it over.

I hope the more moderate members can get their Party back.

Here's Dominic Grieve. Suspect he was a member of the Conservative Party longer than Johnson and co. Arguably he and his ilk have more right to the Conservative Party than the new cuckoos in the nest.

twitter.com/ukiswitheu/status/1468648403601174541?s=21

@SexyNeckbeard read commentaries written by people independent of the government, not just copying and pasting stuff from Gov.uk

'aimlessly criticising' well he is supposed to oppose and yet others say he doesn't oppose enough.
I actually thought he played a blinder in pmqs today but doubt many on here listened to it.

catfromjapan

You're doing "but the tories".

What's my 'idealogy'? I'm not a Tory and I don't think they're great either. But this is a thread about why Labour are (supposedly ) shite.

Opposing everything makes him sound ridiculous. Like all he's there for is to say the opposite. If he offered a more balanced view then maybe he'd appear to have even the tiniest clue.

I'd love Boris to ask him wtf he'd do instead.

This is not his/her first rodeo

What is that supposed to mean @RepentMotherfucker?

@portandchocolate
Actually Labour have been very supportive of Tory measures re covid.
Surely anyone who'd been paying attention would know that?

[quote Kendodd]@portandchocolate
Actually Labour have been very supportive of Tory measures re covid.
Surely anyone who'd been paying attention would know that?[/quote]
In our house we all say.. 'And here we go with just the opposite' every time Starmer is about to open his mouth...

[quote Effibreast]@SexyNeckbeard read commentaries written by people independent of the government, not just copying and pasting stuff from Gov.uk [/quote]
I asked you to share what you've read so I could read it too and you couldn't be bothered. I'm not trawling round the Internet looking for stuff to back up YOUR argument, just because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And this is what it's like trying to drill down into what labour supporters think or what the argument is. I was genuinely interested in reading new information about the issue, I went off and looked for solid facts about what this bill is (including reading the bill itself), but reading facts isn't what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to look up people's opinions and swallow them as gospel like you have. No thanks.

You should try developing critical thinking skills, it'd probably serve you well

@portandchocolate he doesn't oppose everything. He's agreed with some things and been lambasted by the left for that. Again he's the opposition, it's his job. He also suggested things during lockdown which were later implemented but mocked by Johnson initially.
'I'd love boris to ask him wtf he'd do' oh yes good old competent 'Boris'. Says no one. Think we'll be waiting a while for that. Sadly you are pretty much alone in your 'love' for 'Boris' at the moment

Lol try George Monbiot but doubt you read the Guardian.

I was replying in depth to the poster who mentioned Momentum.

Plus I think it's important to talk about what happened with regard to the Conservative Party. It does, actually, matter.

People don't just think about Labour in a vacuum. There's an element of comparison going on.

More interestingly, I often wonder if, really, the point of threads like this should be about increasing awareness generally.

My feeling is that a lot of people who follow politics closely have changed their feelings about Labour. Quite a lot of those have switched for the reasons I've outlined above - they don't feel the Conservative Party is their Conservative Party any more.

And others quite like the changes they've seen the Labour Party making.

(And, of course, some former Labour supporters don't like the changes.)

But I sense that a lot of that finer detail hasn't worked its way into the mainstream yet.

Which is what you'd expect.

We live busy lives, with many demands. We often don't have time to follow politics in minute detail.

I'm quite sure most people missed Prime Minister's Questions - and that's to be expected.

And knowing the ins and outs of Labour's new front bench - that's also necessarily niche.

Anyway, I tend to read threads like this to discover things I didn't know and to share opinions.

Ultimately, this is a chat forum. Things we write and share here are unlikely to bring any radical change. So it's just nice to share and read information and opinions.

Hopefully, in a kind and thoughtful manner. 🤷‍♀️

[quote Effibreast]@portandchocolate he doesn't oppose everything. He's agreed with some things and been lambasted by the left for that. Again he's the opposition, it's his job. He also suggested things during lockdown which were later implemented but mocked by Johnson initially.
'I'd love boris to ask him wtf he'd do' oh yes good old competent 'Boris'. Says no one. Think we'll be waiting a while for that. Sadly you are pretty much alone in your 'love' for 'Boris' at the moment [/quote]
Not sure how you leapt to the conclusion that I loved Boris.. he's a buffoon.

Sadly Starmer is too. 🤷‍♀️