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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Regarding "absent" mothers (in this day and age) - especially re. Child Support

199 replies

LoveMyPiano · 05/12/2021 11:46

Still with questions about how things went for my sister (posted previously about the divorce). Her husband had an affair, firstly with my sister's best/only friend (also mother to their daughter's best friend - "conveniently"). This started the first breakdown of the marriage, which was - truth be told - not so great in the first place.

The affair ended and they reconciled, but then another affair started - which my sister was aware of but stayed quiet about, trying to keep family together (issues, like me, with insecurity and abandonment). When after a year, it was brought out into the open, he took their daughter to live with him and his mother (daughter was given a "choice" - she was 11-12 at the time) and my sister had a nervous breakdown, a couple of suicide attempts and retreated almost entirely from society, onto benefits etc. He reclaimed the family home and she moved into a rented house and continued he downward spiral. She saw her daughter, on the terms dictated by her husband, and he divorced her without any financial or custody matters being resolved (this happened after a couple of years - as per the other post I made, with no responses...).

The husband came after her for the Child Benefit less than one week after he took thir daughter - when it was not even clear that the arrangement was anything like agreed or permanent, so it should have been no surprise that when she finally found a job, he came after her for Child Support. He at that time was working in a nicely paid job, the mortgage was low, and a low payment, and his mother (retired) made life a lot eaier for him and daughter, who, as the rleationship with the "OW" progressed, became less happy living with him. He blatantly told my sister that the child support would be paying the OW's mortgage, so she made the payment direct to her daughter's bank account. But, this was short-ish term, as her mental health was still not great and she ended up out of work again and unable to pay, which is how things continued.

I am not really sure about my own thoughts on this, but certainly wish I had known - but she kept everything from her "family" (of origin) and fought this awful battle alone.

I am sure the term "absent mother" might be inflammatory in a lot of ways, but really am looking for input regarding this issue, as I do think that she had a bad time of it, but it may be something that is seen 100% black and white (i.e. absent fathers should pay etc etc).

Any and all thoughts and input would be helpful (she is not on MN).

OP posts:
Ozanj · 05/12/2021 18:49

Why can’t she take him to court for 50/50?

MrsBobDylan · 05/12/2021 18:49

This thread isn't going to deliver what you want/need op.

And I hate to push the narrative even further away from what you are seeking, but your sister didn't even fight for custody. She didn't fight for her daughter when her husband took her and eventually decided that the child was better off with out her.

MrsBobDylan · 05/12/2021 18:50

Also, I have definitely read this before, but from the Mother's perspective.

There was no obvious way forward then too.

Happy1982ish · 05/12/2021 18:52

@AnneLovesGilbert

Blimey. What a saga.

I hope your niece is well and enjoying her studies. It seems her dad did an okay job.

This
Happy1982ish · 05/12/2021 18:53

@Ozanj

Why can’t she take him to court for 50/50?
The child is now at university

The op raking through history

icedcoffees · 05/12/2021 18:54

@Ozanj

Why can’t she take him to court for 50/50?
Because OP's sister decided she didn't want to be a mother after all.

Even though apparently her ex took her daughter away from her.

Hmm
Happy1982ish · 05/12/2021 18:54

So now the money was used for her pony!!

Upthread it was used for the OW’s mortgage!

Grin
CloudyStorms · 05/12/2021 19:06

@Happy1982ish

So now the money was used for her pony!!

Upthread it was used for the OW’s mortgage!

Grin

I know! I mean how much was she paying!
Dishwashersaurous · 05/12/2021 19:18

Very check horses and mortgages for the standard benefit CMS contribution of £7 per week

Funnylittlefloozie · 05/12/2021 19:19

Someone upthread used the phrase "goady trap", when the exH claimed that the maintenance was going to be used to pay the OWs mortgage. Thats exactly what it was, OP and sadly, maybe due to already fragile MH, she fell right into that trap. The man was a proven liar - why on earth did she take his lies at face value on this occasion? He knew exactly what lie would push her right over the edge...and it worked.

At this distance from events, though, I really think your sister would be best served by going to therapy. Perhaps you could help her find some gentle ways to rebuild her relationship with her daughter.

Happy1982ish · 05/12/2021 19:29

In any event
She was only paying short term before her mental health took another dive and she had to stop working.

ThreeLocusts · 05/12/2021 19:37

Hi OP, sounds to me like the issue here isn't really 'should a non-resident parent pay maintenance' but rather 'how do you factor in nasty, controlling, exploitative behaviour by the resident parent into assessing their claim to the non-resident parent's support'?

A lot of posters don't seem to recognize what is lurking behind the scare quotes you put around the word choice' (as in, choice the daughter made) in your original post - it's easy for a ruthless parent to pressure a child into making the choice they prefer.

The way you see it, if I read you right, he discarded his wife and manipulated his child into choosing him over her mother. Thereby he contributed greatly to the mother's mental health crisis. Then, on top of all this, he gets to claim part of the mother's meagre earnings. Sounds really shit.

I read it this way because I'm the daughter of a nasty man who greatly contributed to my mother's poor mental health, and managed to convince her own family that she was the problem. I guess you need experience of just how devious and self-righteous some people are to consider this version of events.

Sorry you're getting so little sympathy here. I fully see why you would resent your sister having to pay maintenance.

Toomanyradishes · 05/12/2021 19:37

Unless your niece lived on air and clothed herself in pure light whilst needing no roof over her head, furniture or pocket money of course the child maintenence would have gone towards her costs

If that freed her dad up to spend the equivalent sum on something else that is neither you or your sisters business

Paying it to the daughter was controlling and completely unfair, what is the child supposed to do, buy her own food, set up a dd for her electricity. It puts the daughter in the middle of a fight between her parents which is a terrible parenting decision. If a man did this to his ex he would be called financially controlling

You are trying very hard to paint the dad like the monster here and your sister as a slightly naive woman who has all the best intentions but bad things just happen to her, but realitybis rarely that black and white

Ultimately you seem to think because the dad was financially stable and your sister wasnt he was wrong to ask for child maintenance, but thats wrong, your sister had a child, she had a financial responsiblity regardless of anything going on in his life.

Hont1986 · 05/12/2021 19:43

I'm really surprised that you expected people here to support your sister. Imagine coming on Mumsnet and thinking people would back the idea of a non-resident parent not having to pay child maintenance.

Toomanyradishes · 05/12/2021 19:49

@threelocusts to be fair we only have the sisters side of the story here through

Firstly I am genuinely sorry your dad was a shit, so what I am posting isnt aimed at ypu specifically, more to offer another side thats possible

My mum would have you think she always means well, bad things just happen to her becauss other people are nasty. If someone upsets her even accidentally she assumes they have the worse intentions, invents a fiction that they are nasty people wanting to upset her so much she will die from the stress because they are trying to kill her etc. But if she upsets someone else (often deliberately) its all 'oh poor little me I am so misunderstood'

Other peoples actions, that have literally nothing to do with her, will stress her out to the point of her having heart palpitations, dizzy spells, weeks in bed (the doctors can never find any cause)

If she and my dad had divorced (and trust me I wish they had) and I had gone to live with my dad, I can guarantee you the narrative would have been he was a cruel man who had turned me against her, whilst she would have made no effort to actually get me back because the sympathy and attention would have been more beneficial to her than the burden of an actual child. She also wouldnt have paid for me as she would have been too ill to work, unless she needed money of course. If I ever dared defend my dad she would tell me he was turning me against her when in reality he never bad mothed her but she complained about him to me for as long as I remember, about everything too including how bad he was in bed from when i was about 7!

I guess my point is, you see the Ops senario one was because of your crappy dad, I see it another way because of my crappy mum, but with a one sided narrative we will probably never know the truth

Im guessing we both agree with feeling sorry for the poor daughter in all of this!

GoddamnCars · 05/12/2021 19:55

It sounds like your sister was suffering the effects of her husband's controlling behaviour and didn't have the ability to fight against him/his behaviour with regard to being the 'favoured' parent. Do you think he might have manipulated the daughter?
Sorry if I have read this wrong. I have different lived experience to a lot of mothers and this is what your description looked like to me.

GoddamnCars · 05/12/2021 19:59

ThreeLocusts said it better than me. I have been the mum in a similar situation and it has been very hard, it's not nice to see other posters accusing your sister of being incapable when they have no clue what this man put her through. The maintenance isn't the actual focus of the injustice of the situation is it.

KTheGrey · 05/12/2021 20:03

How can somebody having a nervous breakdown be expected to pay child support? In addition it's pretty obvious that your sister's breakdown was at least partly caused by her husband's betrayal and certainly made worse by his manipulation and bullying after the separation. He sounds a horror. It sounds like he demanded custody so he could keep the house, and in my opinion once he's pulled that stroke, threatening his daughter with isolation from half her family, your sister owed him nothing whatsoever. She simply didn't get any choice, from the sound of things. I don't think somebody as cruel and manipulative as your sister's husband deserves any kind of enabling. I hope your sister is better now. Flowers

GoddamnCars · 05/12/2021 20:12

Abuse can make the abused person feel unable or ashamed to ask for support. In my case I didn't tell anyone what was happening until the end and it was hard for anyone to support me even then. I hope your sister is managing better. Really sorry she has gone through this.

LoveMyPiano · 05/12/2021 20:17

@WonderfulYou

*She was very afraid of turning into our mother, and felt that in the end "not being a mother" was best for her daughter*

So she chose not to be involved. She decided it was best for her not to be a mother in the physical sense.
And of course she’s still need to pay maintenance even if she decided to not be involved.

I’m confused what part you find unfair.
In one post you imply it wasn’t her choice to not be part of her DDs life and in another you say it was her decision.

You could speak to your sister and her ex to find out what happened but chances are they’ll both give their own versions of events. So I would just accept the fact that actually your sister was probably in the wrong and wanted to escape motherhood but told the story to make her the victim (like many estranged fathers do).

(I wish I knew how to snip the quotes..) It was not her decision to have her daughter taken away from her. That was a manipulative tactic used by her husband and his mother. After struggling for some time, she phased herself out whilst being pushed further out.
OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 05/12/2021 20:34

@LoveMyPiano has she forgiven you?

Dishwashersaurous · 05/12/2021 20:37

Have you reestablished contact with your niece? Maybe talking to her and supporting her would help you come to terms with what happened.

You can't change the past. You can only support people to move on.

oviraptor21 · 05/12/2021 20:58

I agree with @ThreeLocusts and @GoddamnCars . So many PP without a shred of empathy for a woman with a manipulative ex, whose breakdown was majorly contributed to by his shitty behaviour. Also many who appear not to have read all of OP's posts.
However, what I will agree with is that there is little point raking over the past. The best way to support your sister is to help her find ways of reconnecting with her daughter and starting to make up for all those lost years.

LoveMyPiano · 05/12/2021 22:28

Thank you especially to @GodamnCars @threeLocsts, and @KTheGrey; much more balanced - and yes, understanding - replies. Such a relief to hear, and respond, even though i was almost done and was away from laptop with a draining phone battery - and was very much repeating myslf, and yet still not being heard. I cannot help but wonder if this would have happened if my sister HAD had the nerve to post the question....

To repeat for those who are still making incorrect assumptions, even though I thought I was clear; the mental health decline and harm to herself was AFTER the taking of her daughter, it was NOT witnessed by her, and was exacerbated by the efforts she made - without support - to keep her child or even to stay in her life, albeit peripherally. She kept how she felt to herself, but crumbled after the two years it all took to be "finalised". And even then it wasn't - she had really bad legal advice. (I have seen the papers, so know the dates and how long it was allowed to take.)

The threat to use the CS for someone else's mortgage had the desired effect and she became the "bad guy" by paying the daughter direct, mainly for her to keep the pony on. The demonising of what she did. in some of the replies (genuine misunderstandings forgiven) is amazing to me. By the time she fell into reduced circumstances again, the pony was outgrown and sold on at a profit to another child and daughter kept the proceeds.

As far as I can see it, with my biased and regretful eye, he DID do her wrong, and preyed on her weaknesses (some of which I share....) and there had certainly been some emotional, physical and financial abuse (yet she still hoped for the marriage to continue). He took a beautiful, intelligent and career-oriented woman and turned her into a shell of herself. The issues that she had played a part, but he was not a person of any depth, so they would have confused and frustrated him - so SHE became "too complicated".

The grandmother was not in great health, but was tough enough to shut my sister out even when her own son had left his daughter behind and my sister tried to get her back (again, not through legal channels). She was by then occupying my sister's previous home, which made it all messier and long-drawn out than it needed to be.

In part by her own decision (shame, blaming herself etc ), and in part because both she and I have really bad "parents" and other "family", she had little to no support throughout it, with many not knowing, or caring even if they did know some of it.

One other comment with a bit of our backstory - although we have the same parents, I was not brought up with my own mother (my sister was; another contributory complication) and had very little connection until late teenage years, and beyond (and yes, it has failed miserably in the end) but I have never ONCE said that she "abandoned" me. Even though iit seems to be black and whte to some (most) on here, I do not consider it abandonment in it's most literal and cruel sense.

As for "raking over things" and it being "history", I do understand why some contributors want to see it that way. BUT, in terms of this (and some other aspects of our lives), I cannot help but be interested and want to know more. The lack of contact over the years makes it seem more recent, a bit like a wormhole - and some life events DO have a ripple effect for decades; why would something as big as this NOT have such a long-lasting effect?

And I do think that it is fair and right to give the matter time and careful considerration in an attempt to understand, even after "such a long time".

I don't expect everyone to feel or see it the same way - and I asked for input, and do not mind that so few people can see it the way I do. But again, I am so glad my sister doesn't know about the way this converstion went. I am saddened by it, and that there is such an ugly side to an otherwise very useful facility.

OP posts:
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