Regarding "absent" mothers (in this day and age) - especially re. Child Support

[LoveMyPiano]

Still with questions about how things went for my sister (posted previously about the divorce). Her husband had an affair, firstly with my sister's best/only friend (also mother to their daughter's best friend - "conveniently"). This started the first breakdown of the marriage, which was - truth be told - not so great in the first place.

The affair ended and they reconciled, but then another affair started - which my sister was aware of but stayed quiet about, trying to keep family together (issues, like me, with insecurity and abandonment). When after a year, it was brought out into the open, he took their daughter to live with him and his mother (daughter was given a "choice" - she was 11-12 at the time) and my sister had a nervous breakdown, a couple of suicide attempts and retreated almost entirely from society, onto benefits etc. He reclaimed the family home and she moved into a rented house and continued he downward spiral. She saw her daughter, on the terms dictated by her husband, and he divorced her without any financial or custody matters being resolved (this happened after a couple of years - as per the other post I made, with no responses...).

The husband came after her for the Child Benefit less than one week after he took thir daughter - when it was not even clear that the arrangement was anything like agreed or permanent, so it should have been no surprise that when she finally found a job, he came after her for Child Support. He at that time was working in a nicely paid job, the mortgage was low, and a low payment, and his mother (retired) made life a lot eaier for him and daughter, who, as the rleationship with the "OW" progressed, became less happy living with him. He blatantly told my sister that the child support would be paying the OW's mortgage, so she made the payment direct to her daughter's bank account. But, this was short-ish term, as her mental health was still not great and she ended up out of work again and unable to pay, which is how things continued.

I am not really sure about my own thoughts on this, but certainly wish I had known - but she kept everything from her "family" (of origin) and fought this awful battle alone.

I am sure the term "absent mother" might be inflammatory in a lot of ways, but really am looking for input regarding this issue, as I do think that she had a bad time of it, but it may be something that is seen 100% black and white (i.e. absent fathers should pay etc etc).

Any and all thoughts and input would be helpful (she is not on MN).

Many many people have marriage breakdowns because their partner had an affair

Your sister made multiple suicide attempts and retreated from society as a result of this. She had a young child at the time.

I feel for your sister. But her response indicates someone in need of very substantial mental health support

And YOU focus on this issue of money etc is NOT helping

Again - the mental decline was BECAUSE he took their daughter and tricked her into leaving the house (twice), not the REASON.

Which if true is awful but you weren’t around so don’t know the full story and the child chose to go with her dad - so your sister did what her child wanted.

What part do you think is unfair?
That she wasn’t the residential parent or that she had to pay for her child’s upkeep?

Do you think the child was well looked after? As at the end of the day that’s the most important thing. Your sister can now concentrate on building a relationship with her DD.

Your poor sister, it sounds like she has had a very tough few years - relationship breakdown, poor mental health and presumably seeing less of her daughter than she wanted to as well.

However, providing for her daughter needed to be the priority. Of course child benefit goes to the parent caring for the child.
Similarly, she owed child support and should have paid it to the parent, not the child.
Doesn't matter what dad was spending his money on, she was contributing to housing, feeding and clothing her child.
Was the child support amount anywhere near half the actual costs?

Human relationships are almost impossible to legislate for. Sadly that leaves some people hurt by courts and some people helped.
I agree with someone above who said she needed to muster the strength to fight this - for example getting at least 50-50 custody (which she almost certainly would have got if she was well).
Some abusive men do use the courts to further abuse their wives, ‘stealing the children’. This only succeeds because the wife is in such a low place that they don’t present well to court and aren’t actually parenting well because of the toll on their mental health. It’s all pretty ugly.

I can only encourage you to encourage your sister to ensure she has a secure hone and enough to support herself and then ask her daughter if she would like to spend more time with her.
What’s done is done but the relationship with her daughter is far from over. Invest in that.

Again - the mental decline was BECAUSE he took their daughter and tricked her into leaving the house (twice), not the REASON.

But at the end of the day, the results are the same. Your sister wasn't capable of being the resident parent, and her ex was.

@Happy1982ish

Many many people have marriage breakdowns because their partner had an affair

Your sister made multiple suicide attempts and retreated from society as a result of this. She had a young child at the time.

I feel for your sister. But her response indicates someone in need of very substantial mental health support

And YOU focus on this issue of money etc is NOT helping

My initial question was connected with the issue of Child Support in the context of the circumstances, in an attempt tto keep things clearISH. And also to keep from dwelling too much on the other ins and outs - which, quite rightly, I have only heard my sister's version of. But which I believe.

Away from here, there are other ways that I am trying to help. And she knows nothing of this rant of mineo on here.

Again, biased as I am (and prepared to be hauled over the coals for it), I believe that it was wrong on all levels. I am the one who is making something of it on here, not her. But I will not diminish her experience as "history" (loosely translated as "irrelevant" - when it is not).

(We do have in common, a father who paid not a bean towards our "upkeep" either. And I personally have/had, in addition, an "absent" mother, who played a massive part in the estrangement of me and my sister.)

Irrespective of the reason she didn't parent her child or provide for her child.

She is at fault.

There may be good reasons for her behaviour but she is at fault.

You continuing to argue that she is not at fault is not going to help your sister going forward.

Or help you in building a relationship with your neicee

No child support is currently due as your niece is an adult.

It’s over. Your sister behaved poorly.

But it’s done. It’s in the past.

You would be better to support you sister with current issues.

@icedcoffees

Again - the mental decline was BECAUSE he took their daughter and tricked her into leaving the house (twice), not the REASON.

But at the end of the day, the results are the same. Your sister wasn't capable of being the resident parent, and her ex was.

That was not decided by the Court. And, had he not simply taken their daughter (as in, didn't return her one day), she may not have sunk as low as she did.....

Apparently, when he took/didn't return her, that was "allowed" but - advised by a Solicitor - she would have been required to "go through the Courts" to get her back, when they had been living as a single-parent family at that time after the revelation of the #2 affair.
When she took a determined approach with the Solicitor who told her this, she was even told by them that she was "histrionic" and "dramatic". Again, I wasn't there - and they are just words, but who wouldn't have been?

@Skyll

No child support is currently due as your niece is an adult.

It’s over. Your sister behaved poorly.

But it’s done. It’s in the past.

You would be better to support you sister with current issues.

Have you got the needle stuck my dear?

If you both have issues of abandonment and insecurity from childhood trauma, then the marriage breakdown wasn't the full reason for her breakdown. She might be focusing on blaming her ex because she doesn't want to go into the early trauma.
She wasn't fit to have residency. She needs to reconcile with that. It's done and she's still here. Her DD has done well and a relationship can bloom with adult children. His Mother taking her gave her stability. Either way he orchestrated that by gaining residency. Her DD won't enjoy the focus on how shit her Dad is, or her Mother resenting having to pay for her. It needs to be put to bed. Life should have entered a new chapter when her DD was 18. As said make sure that you aren't adding to her being stuck in those bad times.

I'm a little confused on what your asking tbh. However, the maintenance should always be paid up the parent whom the child lives with. It should never be paid direct to the child. Would your sister have been happy for the maintenance to bypass her if it were the other way round? All this "it was being used to pay the other woman's mortgage" is rubbish. Maintenance and father's wages presumably all went into the same pot, and as long as the child's needs were being met it's nothing to do with anyone else what he spends money on.

That was not decided by the Court. And, had he not simply taken their daughter (as in, didn't return her one day), she may not have sunk as low as she did.....

But your sister could have fought that. You say yourself that she argued with the solicitor and chose not to go through court - that was her choice and choices have consequences.

I'm not saying her ex behaved impeccably but in the eyes of the court (and outsiders) your sister didn't fight to get her child back, didn't pay maintenance and wasn't capable of having residency either.

Apparently, when he took/didn't return her, that was "allowed" but - advised by a Solicitor - she would have been required to "go through the Courts" to get her back, when they had been living as a single-parent family at that time after the revelation of the #2 affair.

That is correct, yes. The affairs are irrelevant - if your sister wanted her daughter back, she should have applied through court. That's the way the law works.

When she took a determined approach with the Solicitor who told her this, she was even told by them that she was "histrionic" and "dramatic". Again, I wasn't there - and they are just words, but who wouldn't have been?

I mean, of course she was upset but she chose not to fight the issue correctly and instead, in your words, retreated from society and didn't do what was necessary to get her daughter back.

So where were you in all this? Did you think your sister and her daughter were living a full and happy life?

If you’re looking to atone for not helping her when she needed you, I’m not sure getting on your high horse about CM is the way to do it.

@dizzygirl1

Op you were astranged from your sister at the time (from what you've said) You don't know what actually happened. You only know what your sister is remembering 9 years on... as always there are 3 sides to a story 'hers', 'his' and 'the truth'. What your sister is remembering as the full reasons for her MH decline might not be the full reason. I'd suggest if she talks about it now, just try to bring her back to here and now - things she can change and do now. Rather than concentrate on the past, it's not helping

This is a polite way of putting it. I have never known an adult who abandoned their children be honest about what actually happened. To the point of blatantly lying.

I know many people who have been cheated on by the spouses and partners. All of them experienced pain and MH issues. They still coparent and support their children.

Neither you or your sister seem particularly interested in trying to make things right with her daughter. Which involves listening to how the daughter feels and accepting responsibility. Both of you are stuck in the blame game.

Your niece chose to live with her father rather than her mother after the breakdown of the parents’ relationship.

That could have been her genuine wish, in which case, as hard as it was for your sister, niece was in the right place.

It could also have been the result of, as you say, the father manipulating niece - in that case your sister’s remedy was to make an application to court to have it determined by a judge where niece should live.

She didn’t do that. Instead, she entered into a downward mental health spiral. Of course that is extremely sad, but possibly confirms that your niece was in the right place with her dad, who was the more stable parent.

She could have and should have resolved the child arrangements at the time; she didn’t. She could have and should have resolved the finances at the time; she didn’t.

So we are where we are. Niece living with dad. And so of course it’s right that your sister contributed financially to the dad, and that child benefit was transferred over. I’m not sure on what basis you would argue otherwise.

It’s desperately sad, and I’m sure if your sister could go back she would do things differently. But she can’t.

You seem to be set on victimising your sister, and demonising her ex - possibly because that’s how your sister sees it - but that’s not helpful, and seems misplaced.

Op

Read the responses

Pretty unanimous that response is that it is not unfair

You do seem massively invested in the relationship breakup of other people.

Is your 'sister' really you in this OP?

Because if so, that would make more sense but the advice would be the same.

I think the answers you want won’t be found on here. Child benefit should always be paid by whatever parent doesn’t have full custody to the other parent however the relationship ended and however badly each person was treated.
If you want to go through it all and find answers I’m guessing just so you can have a peace of mind of the situation then maybe reading into it more with services would be a better approach.
Your helping your sister and your relationship is on the mend and Hopefully in time your sister and niece can all move on. Parents can royally screw children up as yours clearly did just don’t let this eat into time you could be using to better your nieces experience with her family.

@WorraLiberty

You do seem massively invested in the relationship breakup of other people.

Is your 'sister' really you in this OP?

Because if so, that would make more sense but the advice would be the same.

Oh, that would make more sense.

I hope you and your sister are not as doggedly determined in RL when it comes to the situation to see her as the victim.

Otherwise absolutely no chance of the university daughter ever wanting to forge a relationship with her, let alone you

@BonesInTheOcean

I'm not sure what you are wanting from this?

If the father had the same issues that the mother had, would anyone blame the mother for taking custody of the child? the father had a nervous breakdown, a couple of suicide attempts and retreated almost entirely from society, onto benefits - left the family home, but still wanted to retain the child benefit even though child was living full time with the mother. Should he pay child support, even though the mother doesnt really need it?. As they are not on good terms, she's told him that the child support is paying for the other mans mortgage, so he is being controlling and paying directly in to the child bank account

No, they wouldnt - so why do you expect it to be different for you sister. Yes, it is shit that it happened, No i would wish it for my friends or family

Bones, she has the breakdown AFTER her DH took the child to live with him at his mother's.

You are confusing effect with cause.

I have never known an adult who abandoned their children be honest about what actually happened. To the point of blatantly lying.

A million times this.

Parents who abandon their children KNOW they will be judged by society, and will say anything to try and get people on their side.

Again he didn't take the daughter with Court consent!!
A conversation had taken place about (hypothetically) who she would, if given a say, choose to live with. Husband heard about it, and acted on it, without anyone's permission...
My sister and their daughter were living together at that time. He had said he would withdraw himself and all his side of extended family.
And yes, the "same" happened on the mother's side. It is now of course "convenient" that it caused her to suffer mentally (and physically, and financially), so a dim view can be taken in the rear view mirror on here and also in the eyes of the Court when it got there.
Very easy to blame the marriage failing on her background 🙄

It doesn’t matter if you’re a mum or a dad - if you have the dc most of the time then the other parent must pay child support. The girl chose to live with her dad. Did your sister have MH issues before the affair? Her behaviour/actions sound too severe to be from just splitting with her DH. Did you try to get your sister (or you if you’re changing the roles in the story) professional help?