AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

It's wildly entitled to think that people without children need to wait at the back of the queue, cap in hand, for their holidays. I certainly do not factor their child care issues into my holiday planning. I have plenty of my own obligations to deal with. Yes, I still enjoy Christmas and summer holidays, believe it or not...

Flexibility is for everyone!

Where i work it was made very clear that seniority not parental status determines choice of days off. No one can claim they weren't warned while interviewing.

In 35 years I've never worked anywhere that did this.

I've never had a friend mention it before or after children as something that happened.

Employers that let parents pick and choose holiday time are wrong.

Xmas cover in particular has always been who doesn't want it off. Then if people still needed it's on rotation.

I'm a parent and I agree with you, OP.

I think it's nice if people can come to arrangements - especially when a particular day/time means a lot to one person and nothing to another, such as people who celebrate Eid but not Christmas and vice versa, or individual/family birthdays; but the automatic assumption that parents should get first call on all the big dates and leave the childfree with the dregs is outrageous.

Sometimes, it can work well for the parents to focus around Christmas and the childfree (especially the younger ones) to get the time around New Year instead - BUT only if it suits everybody and with full discussion and agreement.

It might not be so bad if it were just for a year or two, but suppose you have four children, three years apart, that could be the best part of three decades to just assume you have the 'right' to all of the nice holidays. One thing if your child's nativity falls on some random day in early/mid December; but to expect that other people without kids somehow won't consider Christmas Eve/Day/Boxing Day special is crass in the extreme.

Also, as well as being infuriating and grossly unfair to those who have never wanted children, how much of a huge kick is it to those who are desperate for a child but struggling/unable to conceive, who are then effectively 'punished' all over again, being reminded every time the annual leave calendar is discussed that 'it's alright for you as you don't have to plan around children' ?

As has been said, plenty of folk with children will be staying around at home with them at Christmas, whereas single and/or childfree people are far more likely to be travelling to spend the time with non-nuclear family.

I'm not convinced that FCFS is always the fairest way, though. Everybody should have an equal chance to get the popular days rather than those whose commitments/schedules/finances/whatever allow them to plan out their year earliest.

I think a bit of give and take is best, wherever possible, but the assumption and/or guilting of others is well out of order.

I don't think you're being unreasonable but one issue is that the amount of annual leave many parents are entitled to is less than the number of school holiday days each year. If you have a partner, hopefully you can split the holiday childcare between you but things you didn't necessarily consider before having children sometime happen - relationships break down or grandparents die. Some people really don't have any other childcare and this year has been extra tough because of Covid and all the isolations and closures.

I actually had to leave my job (that I'd had for years) as my child tested positive for Covid and I got in trouble for having to take annual leave to care for him (still within allowance) while my childless manager was also on holiday.

As a manager I have always worked on the basis that anyone with a good reason for time off gets priority. That includes childcare need, but other reasons too such as caring for an elderly relative, weddings, funerals etc.
I get Christmas off anyway but this year DH is working across Christmas and I have no relatives available for childcare so if I had a job where I was expected to work, I would hope that either DH’s or my employer would give one of us the time off as the DC would otherwise be alone. It’s the human thing to do as an employer. I’d equally expect priority for time off if I was caring for an elderly or disabled relative, it’s not just about being a parent. I think part of being a manager is understanding your team’s personal circumstances and supporting them if they need it.

I also find the reasoning “well you chose to have children” laughable. Reproduction is a fairly basic part of humanity, and without it the species is fucked. It’s not like it’s some mad hobby a few of us have chosen on a whim. We’ll all need the next generation when we’re old FFS!

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out

Yep, I hear you. I lived abroad for several years and always requested the 23rd off to fly home.

First year fine, second year an absolute bitch complained about it asking if they could stop me because ''she saw her family last year'' 😂Yes bitch and I like to see them every year.

She kept saying it was unfair she couldn't spend that day with her kids and because I have no kids I must understand Christmas isn't as big a deal for me🤣 She got laughed at. I got home.

Therefor parents should get priority in terms of leave? Not sure what point you are trying to make there

Speaking as a parent, I do not think parents should get priority over nonparents.

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

If it allows more women to stay in the workplace and not get priced out by childcare costs then I think its for the greater good. That being said, if its shift work and Christmas day that should definitely be taken in turns or that seems quite unfair.

I'm not interested in missing Christmas with my elderly parents for "the greater good."

People have an entire year to plan and pay for Christmas week/ school holidays child care. Their failure to do so - team up with other parents, hire an au pair, whatever - isn't co workers' problem.

@Willyoujustbequiet

Yabu

If you are a lone parent without a support network and there is no childcare physically available as it's all shut Christmas day what do you suggest?

And before you say it people's circumstances change after they've had children.

The same argument would also apply to carers. Anyone with young kids/disabled/elderly dependants should take priority over someone with no caring responsibilities at those times of the year when it could be impossible to find an alternative.

I would suggest investing significant effort cultivating relationships outside of work - family, friends, neighbors - as a support system. Rather than expect co workers to be pressed into service of someone else's family needs.

I don’t think it should be first come first served but rather it should be shared in some way. In my work there is a sign up sheet where you can sign up to work Christmas Eve, Boxing Day, new year. It’s extra pay so many people want to. If people don’t want to then they will look at who worked last year.

I did have a colleague whining at me last Christmas Eve, saying ‘it’s not fair I’m here, Christmas Eve is a family time.’ I cut her off pretty quickly by reminding her that I have kids too, and that people without kids still have a family and want to enjoy that time. If you don’t want to work certain times look for a job that doesn’t require work during that time and make it clear at interview. Don’t take a job you know requires certain hours then expect other colleagues to cover for you because you have kids.

@VashtaNerada

As a manager I have always worked on the basis that anyone with a good reason for time off gets priority. That includes childcare need, but other reasons too such as caring for an elderly relative, weddings, funerals etc. I get Christmas off anyway but this year DH is working across Christmas and I have no relatives available for childcare so if I had a job where I was expected to work, I would hope that either DH’s or my employer would give one of us the time off as the DC would otherwise be alone. It’s the human thing to do as an employer. I’d equally expect priority for time off if I was caring for an elderly or disabled relative, it’s not just about being a parent. I think part of being a manager is understanding your team’s personal circumstances and supporting them if they need it.

So you make yourself judge and jury of whose family situations are most compelling?

I'd not work for a manager who operated that way.

@Dasher789

I don't think it should be an actual rule that parents get preferential treatment but on the whole I'd hope most people were flexible. I'm not taking time off this Xmas to let others in my team with kids have the whole week off. When I was a child I liked to have my parents around over Xmas. If I had something on then fair enough a bit of flexibility both ways but I don't want to stand in the way of a family Christmas to watch re runs of Jingle all the Way every day

Genuine question but when would the flexibility go both ways? Child free colleagues should cover summer hols, Christmas, Easter, late evenings, early mornings. Presumably they should do this forever if they stay child free and others will always have children.

When do you offer the flexibility back? I’m a mum and can’t think of a time when I could offer something a child free colleague would need, so I just do the hours I’m contracted for. Before the interview I organised the hours asked for and ensured I told the manager clearly what hours I could and couldn’t do. I don’t expect colleagues to let me have Christmas Eve off because they want it off too, to visit with their parents, see friends. Some don’t drive and need to travel on Christmas Eve to their home towns to be with family otherwise they’d be alone Christmas Day. Lots of things. No reason why my choice to have children makes me more deserving than their choice not to.

I think part of being a manager is understanding your team’s personal circumstances and supporting them if they need it.

I agree with you, but I also think it's dreadfully unfair when other people end up bearing the burden of that and being permanently shunted to the bottom of the pile. We're not just talking about something like providing a footrest for a very short worker or a huge monitor for somebody who is partially sighted, when these things don't matter to the others anyway (and if they did, they too could have the same, as many who need them).

Any parent can have a childcare emergency, but we're talking about certain parents who think that their regular needs as a parent will always trump those of the people without kids.

Ultimately, you're there to do a job, like everybody else. I presume you wouldn't 'support' a worker who had six children by paying them twice as much as their colleagues doing the same job with 0/1/2 children, on the grounds that they need more money? Let alone doing that by docking the wages of said colleagues in order to release that money to give to the parent with the big family?

I’m a parent, and I don’t think parents should have special treatment.

We used to use annual leave and holiday clubs to help cover holidays etc (no family nearby). It cost money, but you just had to factor that into your budget.

At our workplace, we rotate within depArtments who has the Christmas period off.

But what I don't understand is why people without kids would want to take holiday when the kids are off!

Summer - To look after kids in the family because their parents between them don't have enough holiday entitlement left due to illness of one of said kids in the year to do so, and the two friends who normally help out are both abroad for the entire summer holiday.

Christmas - because both parents are working Christmas Eve with one working Christmas morning and there is no paid childcare available.

To be fair now the law has changed all that happens in work places is parents take unpaid leave for caring responsibilities if they can't take any holiday leaving their colleagues to cover their work.

When do you offer the flexibility back? I’m a mum and can’t think of a time when I could offer something a child free colleague would need, so I just do the hours I’m contracted for.

This is it, really - there's no equivalence with, say, Muslim colleagues always having Eid, Jewish colleagues having Hannukah and Christian colleagues having Christmas (assuming that people are keen to celebrate their own faith's special days and don't personally care about those of other faiths); or Jane has priority for her birthday off and Bill has the same for his, because they're just another standard day to each other.

Not having children - for whatever reason - shouldn't be a reason for punishment or discrimination; and although that's probably not the intention, that's effectively what it comes down to.

This is the reason I went term time working when ds started school, it was great. I worked on a team that were all term time workers & the team just shut down for all school holidays, no arguing over leave & we got additional leave for during school time.

I don’t think it should be a given right but I think it does need a considered approach in order to be fair to all. In my small team, I’m the only one who doesn’t have school age children. So I usually work during school holidays and take my leave outside. To be honest, I usually get better weather in my early June break than those taking leave in August. My cousin works with a lady who thinks she should have priority and more time off at Christmas because she lives furthest away from her family. Now that is entitled.

I get why summer and Xmas both parents and non parents would want the time off and there should be no preferential treatment for those. Summer is long enough that an employer should be able to accommodate everyone in those 6 weeks.

But I do think half terms holidays are different and parents should get priority as why would someone without kids want those weeks off?

Before kids I would prefer to take my holiday while kids were in school its cheaper and easier to travel. I think I would probably say things like xmas shouldn’t always fall on people without kids to cover.

I think most people will find that if they are flexible people will be flexible in return.

But 'I have kids' isn't a get out clause to ensure get time off when you want and everyone else has to have what's left. All the time.

And that's what it usually comes down to. Do you give and take or just take. And that goes for non parents too.

@4amstarts

I get why summer and Xmas both parents and non parents would want the time off and there should be no preferential treatment for those. Summer is long enough that an employer should be able to accommodate everyone in those 6 weeks.

But I do think half terms holidays are different and parents should get priority as why would someone without kids want those weeks off?

Maybe it’s their husband’s birthday. Maybe their parent’s anniversary. Maybe it’s anniversary of a family death. Maybe they love Benidorm this time of the year. Or a new marvel movie is coming out and they like to make an event of it and see it at midnight when it opens.

Just because it’s your kid’s school half term doesn’t mean nobody else has anything going on in their life.