AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

Are you suggesting people in roles such as nursing, emergency services etc either leave their jobs once they have children, or even weirder don't train or do these roles in case they have children one day.

Not necessarily, but I am suggesting that it may be prudent to realise that becoming a parent is a massive lifestyle change and so you may need/want to re-evaluate your lives and possibly make adjustments as appropriate.

You can seek out posts with reduced/more flexible working hours – or even look for job shares, where you and another person will be doing each other a mutual favour if, say, Mondays and Tuesdays are impossible for them and Thursdays and Fridays are impossible for you - rather than a parent expecting to take all the time and the non-parent to give all the time. You can decide to drop down a pay grade (or not go for a promotion) IF you decide (and you may well not) that flexibility is worth more to your family than the extra pay.

As a PP said, it doesn’t have to be one or the other: you can just accept that you have a job that means you won’t get to spend every weekend/bank holiday/special day with your children – in the same way as all working parents accept that they won’t get to spend as many days/hours – mundane or ‘special’ – with their children as SAHPs do. Then again, SAHPs accept that their choice to stay at home will have an impact on their family income and their own future career/earning prospects.

I think the craziest thing of all is to choose to have a child(ren) (as a mum or a dad) and not expect your life to change in any way – for good or bad – as if a child were nothing more than a novelty toy to keep in a drawer and only take out when you want to play with it.

YABU I would always put a child's right to spend time with their parents above my own needs. Obviously this should be within reason

But it’s precisely the ‘within reason’ that this thread is about. Not one single person has hinted that parents should never expect to have their fair share of preferred days off, like everybody else; just that it isn’t fair if a parent expects or demands the automatic right to every school holiday/popular annual leave day, and for their childfree colleagues to therefore not have the right to any of them – ostensibly because they don’t deserve them or their free time and time with their families (including nieces/nephews/grandchildren etc., as well as the elderly and other adults) is somehow much less important than that of a parent with their own child - at all times.

I mean how long do you want the sign to be? Perhaps a simple "don't use the lift if you don't need to, don't be lazy, use the stairs!"

Personally, I wouldn't have a sign at all. Time and time again, the only people who bother to read signs like that are the considerate and respectful ones who didn't need to be told/asked in the first place.

However, if there is to be a sign, I would indeed agree to something like 'please think of others who may be in greater need of this lift and consider using the stairs if you can'

Going from a practical perspective the population is aging and parents need and should have a degree of protection , because after all it’s all ok to say “ it’s a choice “ but parents are creating the next generation of tax payers , the ones that will be paying yours abd said childless colleagues pension and care etc

Do I get protection because my taxes paid for your maternity care, child's education and medical care?

You can seek out posts with reduced/more flexible working hours – or even look for job shares, where you and another person will be doing each other a mutual favour if, say, Mondays and Tuesdays are impossible for them and Thursdays and Fridays are impossible for you - rather than a parent expecting to take all the time and the non-parent to give all the time

The NHS is desperately short staffed at the moment.

It’s actually very difficult to get such flexible hours or a job share when you work for the NHS or emergency services. Such roles are few and far between, and a flexible working request can be turned down if it doesn’t suit the service. A full time role can rarely be made part time as they then lose the funding.

IME it’s at the manager’s discretion who gets their leave requests approved, if all apply for the same week/days. Keep in mind a lot of managers also have young children so may have more sympathy towards the parent needing a few days off at Xmas, than to the colleague who always wants the whole of Xmas week off to travel.

In a team I was in, there was one colleague (child-free) who always requested her leave in the school holidays and half terms, for no reason other than she liked to stagger her leave that way and it just happened to fall on those weeks. She got some of the time off, but some of it went to others (parents who requested the same days) and she seemed to think this a personal attack!

Yet everyone was expected to bend over backwards to cover when she needed to leave early to take dog to the vet, the week her cat had surgery, when she was house hunting and needed a lot of time off at short notice. One day her partner had an emergency (house flooded) and she had to rush off. Fair enough, we took over her work. But when I had to leave early one day to pick up my vomiting child from nursery she kicked up a fuss about covering my caseload! Asked did I not have emergency childcare in place etc 🤔

So it’s not always parents taking and not giving. In some teams it’s the other way around!

@Toomanyradishes
So weird that you would look back at my previous posting history but yes
you are right I do have a real issue with it. I am genuinely shocked that the consensus on this thread seems to be that it is ok for a childless grown up to take Christmas Day off, leaving a parent not able to see their child on a day that is primarily for children. I have lots of friends who work for the NHS and the consensus with them has always been that those without children unofficially step back from having Christmas Day off to give priority to those with young kids. This seems very to me like the decent thing to do and I'm really surprised that others don't view it in the same way.

@DancingQueen85 so it would have been ok for me elderly mother to spend Christmas Day alone? I remember years ago I worked Christmas Day - it turned out to be my Dad’s last Christmas and I’ve regretted it ever since.

My Christmas is no less important than that of someone with kids.

[quote DancingQueen85]@Toomanyradishes
So weird that you would look back at my previous posting history but yes
you are right I do have a real issue with it. I am genuinely shocked that the consensus on this thread seems to be that it is ok for a childless grown up to take Christmas Day off, leaving a parent not able to see their child on a day that is primarily for children. I have lots of friends who work for the NHS and the consensus with them has always been that those without children unofficially step back from having Christmas Day off to give priority to those with young kids. This seems very to me like the decent thing to do and I'm really surprised that others don't view it in the same way. [/quote]
So someone who doesn’t have children will never get Christmas day off as they will always be expected to step back for those with children? That is so unfair. And I disagree that Christmas is primarily for children, it’s actually primarily a religious day.

[quote Toomanyradishes]@dancingqueen85

Its all very well saying you put childrens needs above your own, but as you are a parent you are esentially arguing to your own benefit, not anyone elses

Given you, on another thread, accused a childless woman of being spiteful because she dared book school hliday weeks off to spend time with her siblings children you clearly have a major issue with the idea of non parents daring to take holiday for the 13 or so weeks of the year that children are off (actually as I have worked several places where employees children are in different catchment areas with different half term dates etc that could easily be a higher number)

So whilst it is lovely that you put your childrens needs above your own, apparently you dont care about my sisters childrens needs, as according to you booking time off over summer to support her with childcare would be spiteful

But thats fine, I will just be over here in the corner hogging my lifeboat like the selfish woman I am.....[/quote]
I think that was my thread. The irony is, I was actually going to cancel because I was sick of the hassle. It would have cost me a fortune as I had promised my sister support, I wouldn't have dropped her in it so would have had to fund paid childcare. That poster pissed me off so much that I dug my heels in!

The past 18 months has served as a massive reminder that life is short. A lot of people who may have stepped back in past years will now want to spend time with their elderly family members. As well as family children.

I love all the posts about how parents are creating the future taxpayers so childless people owe them an eternity of gratitude.

Who the fuck do you think is paying for your kids education? Your maternity? Your hospital care when giving birth? Your children's medical care?

I'm assuming they don't just spring from the womb and start paying tax immediately. Mine didn't anyway.

@dancingqueen85

I didnt look back at your posting history, I just remembered your crazy sense of entitlement on that thread and your absolute vitriol that a woman might want to spend time with her nephew in the school holidays.

@hunterhearsthelmsley I was so glad you took your holiday, some of the comments on that thread were batshit crazy

There is a distinct crossover on this thread between some of the people who cant get family support for childcover and those who think people taking time off to support their family off in school holidays is selfish. I cant imagine why their entitled selves cant get family to help with childcare

But I will continue to take time off in the summer to look after my nephew to support my sister working full time despite the fact it apparently makes me spiteful and selfish i hope you get lots more lovely time with your nephew

I am genuinely shocked that the consensus on this thread seems to be that it is ok for a childless grown up to take Christmas Day off, leaving a parent not able to see their child on a day that is primarily for children.

I am genuinely pleased that the consensus on this thread seems to be that it is ok for a childless grown up to take Christmas Day of their fair share of the time leaving a parent to organise a different but lovely christmas for their child on a day that is an important national holiday, especially for Christians.

If you are the only childless member of the team, why should you never have the Christmas that you want?

@Toomanyradishes I'm glad you are getting lots of lovely time with your nephew too! You've got to love being the "fun auntie"!

[quote DancingQueen85]@Toomanyradishes
So weird that you would look back at my previous posting history but yes
you are right I do have a real issue with it. I am genuinely shocked that the consensus on this thread seems to be that it is ok for a childless grown up to take Christmas Day off, leaving a parent not able to see their child on a day that is primarily for children. I have lots of friends who work for the NHS and the consensus with them has always been that those without children unofficially step back from having Christmas Day off to give priority to those with young kids. This seems very to me like the decent thing to do and I'm really surprised that others don't view it in the same way. [/quote]
Wow.

Talk about a selfish attitude! And I'm not talking about these who think children don't give you the right to priority for holidays.

Christmas isn't primarily for children. And that's just nothing but entitlement to suggest that it is.

Christmas means many different things to many people. For some it's religious holiday that has great meaning to them. For others it's about spending time with family. Not just children, but wider family. For some families it's the only time they all get together as the family don't stay local to each other. For others, it's about caring responsibilities which don't always include children. They do really get forgotten about. Some may know that it is likely to be the last Christmas they have with a loved one.

You don't, thankfully, get to choose who has more right to the day off. Employers should ensure it's fair. And resentment isn't caused by one employee insisting their need to be at home is more important than another.

I had a parent who regularly worked Christmas Day. It didn't scar me. It didn't ruin Christmas. My parents adapted Christmas around my dads shift patterns. No big deal at all. We still had a great time, at whatever point in the day we could open presents etc. sometimes it meant Christmas dinner was on a different day, but that's ok too. Lots of families manage it well. If you have to work Christmas Day, rather than moan how unfair it is, find a way that works for your family. Don't expect others to give up their Christmas plans to facilitate yours.

@Toomanyradishes
Sounds like you have an awful lot of time on your hands if you're able to remember threads from months ago. Mumsnet is a very odd place. I have no sense of entitlement as I don't have to work in the school holidays so none of this effects me. However when I have in been in previous roles pre children and colleagues with young children wanted certain dates off during the school holidays, there was no resentment from anyone about them having the time off because were grownups able to put the needs of children above our own.

Again, what are those children’s needs? Is it to be cared for by their parents or to be cared for by appropriate adults?

I am genuinely shocked that the consensus on this thread seems to be that it is ok for a childless grown up to take Christmas Day off, leaving a parent not able to see their child on a day that is primarily for children

A parent is unlikely to be working all day and night.
My dad was a shift worker. He sometimes missed Christmas morning or afternoon but we would have the evening together. Or he might have been in a 2/10 so he missed the extended family Christmas meal that we used to do when a lot if the family was still alive. He might have been on nights so we would have to be quiet while he slept. wmWe made it work.
DH' s dad was a policeman and his mother a nurse. A couple of years they were both on duty at different times if the day. They had their Christmas a day early. No one was traumatised by it.
I work shifts. Again we made it work.
Niow that I'm child free I still want my share of Christmas off. I have elderly parents who aren't in the best of health. I may or may not have many more Christmas with them.
So those who say I should be working and give my turn of having Christmas off can think again. No chance!

@PurpleDaisies To have a magical Christmas Day with their parents. It's such a short time that children are young and really believe in the magic of Christmas. Not at all comparable to an elderly person who has had many many Christmases. Also the point about not knowing how many Christmases someone has left applies to all of us. A good friend of mine has just died of cancer. She didn't know she had it last Christmas but it would seem that most people on this thread would feel no sense or guilt if they were that childless person who insisted they had that Christmas Day off, meaning that my friend missed her last Christmas with her children.

@dancingqueen85 im not sure how having time on my hands would magically improve a persons memory? Ive never met someone who turns having a good memory into an insult before

You are wrong about my time, but like when I choose to have holiday, I dont need to justify my lifestyle to you

Also just as a side note, teaching children that others should always put their needs before their own leads to selfish adults. So maybe we childless people are actually heroically teaching children a really useful lesson in how to share nicely and treat everyone equally on the odd occasion we have the temerity to book a tiny percentage of the school holidays

A good friend of mine has just died of cancer. She didn't know she had it last Christmas but it would seem that most people on this thread would feel no sense or guilt if they were that childless person who insisted they had that Christmas Day off, meaning that my friend missed her last Christmas with her children.

I’m sorry your friend died. How many childless people would miss their last Christmas with elderly parents because they were facilitating “magical Christmas” for parents?

Having a magical Christmas is not a need. To be fed, kept warm, kept safe etc are needs.

If you’re suggesting anyone would knowingly deny someone a last Christmas at home @DancingQueen85, you’re right that it would be a bit heartless. That would apply to anybody, parent or not.

@DancingQueen85 You come across as incredibly selfish. People who don't have children don't owe breeders anything. On the contrary. People who don't have children pay for schools, hospitals etc. If you choose to breed, then get appropriate Christmas cover or don't work or be a SAHM. It's as simple as that. No one owes other people's children anything. Your attitude is why people look down on mums, because they can be so entitled, so narcissistic and so incredibly selfish. Give your head a wobble.

@dancingqueen85

PurpleDaisies To have a magical Christmas Day with their parents. It's such a short time that children are young and really believe in the magic of Christmas. Not at all comparable to an elderly person who has had many many Christmases. Also the point about not knowing how many Christmases someone has left applies to all of us. A good friend of mine has just died of cancer. She didn't know she had it last Christmas but it would seem that most people on this thread would feel no sense or guilt if they were that childless person who insisted they had that Christmas Day off, meaning that my friend missed her last Christmas with her children.

Are you honestly suggesting a person should miss out on a likely last christmas with an elderly parent on the offchance someone they work with who has children might die in the next 12 months, seriously? That is literally insane

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here though, losing a friend to cancer so quickly must have been very traumatic and I would be clinging to my children that bit tighter this chistmas thinking about your friends poor children if I were you.

@Toomanyradishes
You absolutely don't have to justify your lifestyle to me. I have absolutely no interest in it. I don't think this was even your thread so not sure why you are so invested in my response to the OP's question

As a side note. My parents would be horrified if they thought that by spending Christmas Day with them it meant that a child was wasn't able to see their parents.

@PurpleDaisies
Ok you are right, it is not a need. That was the wrong choice of words. It also isn't a need for a childless person to have Christmas Day off, particularly if it means that this prevents a parent from seeing there children.

This has reminded me once again what an odd place mumsnet is. Absolutely everyone I know in real life would consider it selfish for a childless person take Christmas Day as leave over a family with young children but not one person on here seems to share this view. Going to step away from the thread now as it is making me cross and I have a lovely Christmassy day planned with my kids.