AIBU to think parents shouldn't get preferential treatment when it comes to time off work?

[KwestTurkey]

I just read an article on Facebook about this. A parent had asked a childfree colleague if she could have some of her saved holiday days and was refused (understandably).

That's obviously a CF request. But in general, what do you think about parents and holiday requests Vs childfree colleagues?

I don't believe parents should be given priority when it comes to time off on any holiday, be it summer or Christmas etc.. I think it should always, generally, work on a first come first served basis. The amount of times I was refused any sort of time off in the summer because every single parent in the office had booked off the summer and they were given first dibs on those dates used to annoy me.

I'm a parent now but my opinion hasn't changed on that. I think if someone childfree has gotten there with the request before you then that's tough.

Same with Christmas, if you work a job that requires Christmas working, I don't think it's fair to allow the same people off every Christmas year in year out.

It's definitely something I've experienced in my workplace before and after having DC and it feels very unfair.

I really don't think it's anyone elses responsibility to ensure you get time off during school holidays or things like Christmas and that a childfree colleague has as much right to book the time off as any parent.

So...

YANBU - parents shouldn't get preferential treatment or priority when it comes to time off work.

YABU - they should.

@randomsabreuse

I'd assume the priority is because the shopping centre don't want to deal with people falling down the stairs, especially not children... Bad for business...

I sure some on MN would be happy to see buggy pushers confined to using the stairs just to reinforce that "back in the day Mothers had to cope with no help!"

@MuckyPlucky

How old is you DC op? And do you have a partner? When they’re toddlers you can keep them in nursery during parts of the hols but when they’re in infant school you don’t have that luxury.

When you’re a lone parent to primary school kids, and you’ve no family support and there aren’t hol clubs running in the xmas hols what you you expect we do with our children whilst out at work?

I don’t think it’s for individual child free people to give up their Christmas etc to cover for what is actually a lack of state provision (proper holiday clubs). This is a symptom of a fundamental issue with the way we live in the U.K. that can’t be sorted by depending on child free people to sacrifice themselves. I’d be happy to pay a share of my taxes for societal goods like free holiday clubs for those in need who don’t have a support network themselves, but I’m not willing to say that the things that are important to me living a fulfilled life without kids (my choice) like spending Christmas with my friends or even half term going away with my friends and their kids is less important than the life choices of others (including having kids). The solution is to press for a proper social safety net for those who are struggling rather than depending on a system of devaluing the well being of people who haven’t got children by saying we should give up on the celebrations and holidays which matter to us too. Workplaces should have systems to rotate who gets these in demand periods off.

@Rose40Berry This is comment of the thread.

At my old place of work we had one guy who would book all his holiday first, literaly first day in the office at begining of January. He always got it because of first come first served.
When I spoke to my boss about it, I got nowhere. It really should be one gets xmas one gets Easter and vice versa next year or something to that effect.

While I can see taking half term week off can be because of childcare, I don't think it's the same for Christmas. That's about being together. As a parent, I understand the desire for parents and young children to spend Christmas day together...but what about a childless person in their 50s wanting to spend Christmas with their elderly parents?

I'm a parent and I don't get angry if I can get Christmas off, I chose to have children and I chose to work for the NHS, knowing its have to cover these periods.

My brother gets angry on my behalf as he feels I should be allowed the time off — he doesn't understand why I'm so chilled about it

Peachy - I'm guessing that your elderly parents would be fine, left on their own (together), while you're at work. Whereas a younger child would be distressed, and the parent would really struggle to concentrate on their work, knowing their child had got up alone, on Xmas Day.

A few posters have asked me about my personal circumstances when it comes to childcare, I'm assuming with the implication that I just must not understand how hard it is.

I do. I have DC. I have DC in school, primary and secondary and nursery. I've been there trying to juggle what feels like 100 balls during school holidays, I have actually ended up going self employed to help manage this and it has NOT been easy.

The irony is, I'd actually have more help if my mother, who is willing and would love to help, was allowed the time off during school holidays! People talk about being lucky to have family help. I have a family who help but they do still work themselves and if they can't get the time off then they aren't able to.

This wasn't about whether or not it's hard to cover childcare, I bloody know it is. The point still stands that it's not my childless colleagues problem to fix, they don't have to offer solutions. People have asked repeatedly on this thread what they expect parents to do, I don't know, but it's not up to them to tell us imo.

MockneyReject In a circumstance where a single parent had absolutely no family or childcare arrangements for Christmas than I do think they would need to consider whether they were working in the right industry.

By saying it’s impossible for them to work Christmas shifts (I assume for 14 - 15 years) they assuming one or more of their colleagues will cover. That is simply not fair.

I don’t have children. But I do have a family and a life. I am more than happy to pull my weight - and I have on occasions volunteered to cover for colleagues who have small kids. But I resent the sense of entitlement from some parents. If you can’t arrange for childcare then it’s not fair to assume your colleagues have to cover for you.

I am a parent, and I dont expect people to prioritise my time off, but I will make sure I get in there first and book my time off in school holidays and too bad if the childless parents weren't as organised as me

This is my view too. Once I knew when I wanted to take holiday I would book it immediately so I got in first. It did mean planning a long way ahead, but that's the way of things when you have kids. However, I had an office job so didn't have to work Christmas Day and could often work Christmas Eve at home, way before WFH became a thing.

@Mellowyellow222

MockneyReject In a circumstance where a single parent had absolutely no family or childcare arrangements for Christmas than I do think they would need to consider whether they were working in the right industry.

By saying it’s impossible for them to work Christmas shifts (I assume for 14 - 15 years) they assuming one or more of their colleagues will cover. That is simply not fair.

I don’t have children. But I do have a family and a life. I am more than happy to pull my weight - and I have on occasions volunteered to cover for colleagues who have small kids. But I resent the sense of entitlement from some parents. If you can’t arrange for childcare then it’s not fair to assume your colleagues have to cover for you.

I mean lots of those industries do have a shortage of staff- care work, nursing etc and I bet shift work being tricky with family life Haa played at least a part in it.

MockneyReject.
You have completely misunderstood!!!
On Christmas Day it is usual that the other parent or grandparents etc are all gathered together so that one person can be at work. I am not saying a child can be left alone and unsupervised. For example my husbands parents were a nurse and policeman and they never both got Christmas day off but 1 had it off and the other had boxing day off and they made it work.
I sadly only have my Dad as my Mum passed this year, but if I couldn't have Christmas day off and neither could my brother, then he would be on his own for Christmas Day and it's going to be the worst Christmas of his life with his wife of 51 years not there.

Mellow - jobcentre/Universal Credit 'work coaches' don't care whether claimants consider care work/hospitality/retail to be the right industry for them!

Whereas a younger child would be distressed, and the parent would really struggle to concentrate on their work, knowing their child had got up alone, on Xmas Day.

No one is saying children should be left alone on Christmas Day. Most parents who have to work find other options for childcare. I had some lovely Christmas days with my dad of grandparents while mum went to work. That was just the way it was. It wasn’t distressingx

@Mellowyellow222

MockneyReject In a circumstance where a single parent had absolutely no family or childcare arrangements for Christmas than I do think they would need to consider whether they were working in the right industry.

By saying it’s impossible for them to work Christmas shifts (I assume for 14 - 15 years) they assuming one or more of their colleagues will cover. That is simply not fair.

I don’t have children. But I do have a family and a life. I am more than happy to pull my weight - and I have on occasions volunteered to cover for colleagues who have small kids. But I resent the sense of entitlement from some parents. If you can’t arrange for childcare then it’s not fair to assume your colleagues have to cover for you.

Well, that often is what people do. I know a former midwife who had to quit when her ex stopped bothering with his overnight contact with their toddler because that then made it impossible for her to work outside hours where you can pay for childcare. What a win that was for a chronically understaffed unit.

There’s a sign by the lifts in my local shopping mall saying “At busy times please give priority to the disabled and families with young children and pushchairs”. The first bit I get but why shouldn’t families with young children and pushchairs wait in line like everyone else?

I don't get that (the families with children bit) either. Like with the annual leave - where there will be enough days for everybody to have their leave, just not all the same or their most preferred days - the lift will be available for everybody who needs it: it's not a case of a parent with a pushchair being unable to get upstairs at all, just that they may have to wait their turn.

I would love this!! But it's sadly not at all true. It's very difficult to get a job like this

I realise that it's not easy, but there are jobs out there. At one stage, I was looking for a PT job and, so that we could work childcare, I could only work on Mondays and Tuesdays. Of course, most of the jobs weren't suitable, and had to be discounted straightaway, but there were a fair few. I didn't apply for any that said '3 days: Mon/Tues/Wed', only to be ready to accept any offers and then say that I couldn't do any Wednesdays, because childcare.

Plenty of people have needs or preferences in employment, or find common requirements of the job that they can't do, and have to dedicate a lot of time to sifting through all of the job sites to find the small number of suitable ones; it's not just parents.

If a job ad says 'must speak fluent Arabic' and you don't speak Arabic at all, you instantly discount that one as a potential; similarly, if it's clear that you must be able to work weekends and/or bank holidays/Christmas etc. and your life circumstances mean you can't commit to that - or even if you could commit to that, but you just don't want to - you ignore that one and keep on scrolling.

the lift will be available for everybody who needs it: it's not a case of a parent with a pushchair being unable to get upstairs at all, just that they may have to wait their turn the point of those notices or the more blunt ones is use the lift if you NEED it and if you don't NEED it use the stairs. So group of fit 15 year olds or fit couple in their 20s don't NEED the lift. If they don't use it then everyone who does NEED it can use it quicker. Instead of queues of people all waiting to use a lift whilst the empty staircase sits behind them

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

There’s a sign by the lifts in my local shopping mall saying “At busy times please give priority to the disabled and families with young children and pushchairs”. The first bit I get but why shouldn’t families with young children and pushchairs wait in line like everyone else?

I don't get that (the families with children bit) either. Like with the annual leave - where there will be enough days for everybody to have their leave, just not all the same or their most preferred days - the lift will be available for everybody who needs it: it's not a case of a parent with a pushchair being unable to get upstairs at all, just that they may have to wait their turn.

I would love this!! But it's sadly not at all true. It's very difficult to get a job like this

I realise that it's not easy, but there are jobs out there. At one stage, I was looking for a PT job and, so that we could work childcare, I could only work on Mondays and Tuesdays. Of course, most of the jobs weren't suitable, and had to be discounted straightaway, but there were a fair few. I didn't apply for any that said '3 days: Mon/Tues/Wed', only to be ready to accept any offers and then say that I couldn't do any Wednesdays, because childcare.

Plenty of people have needs or preferences in employment, or find common requirements of the job that they can't do, and have to dedicate a lot of time to sifting through all of the job sites to find the small number of suitable ones; it's not just parents.

If a job ad says 'must speak fluent Arabic' and you don't speak Arabic at all, you instantly discount that one as a potential; similarly, if it's clear that you must be able to work weekends and/or bank holidays/Christmas etc. and your life circumstances mean you can't commit to that - or even if you could commit to that, but you just don't want to - you ignore that one and keep on scrolling.

Not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse but in any case I'll bite.

If a job ad says 'must speak fluent Arabic' and you don't speak Arabic at all, you instantly discount that one as a potential; similarly, if it's clear that you must be able to work weekends and/or bank holidays/Christmas etc. and your life circumstances mean you can't commit to that - or even if youcouldcommit to that, but you just don'twantto - you ignore that one and keep on scrolling.

Are you suggesting people in roles such as nursing, emergency services etc either leave their jobs once they have children, or even weirder don't train or do these roles in case they have children one day.

timeisnotaline

But I am very glad to work in a job where we get Christmas Day off, and I think for single parents a good employer has to acknowledge there is no childcare to be found on some days, and parents can’t legally tell their young child be good and I’ll be back in 9 hours, sometimes there are no options“

Why do your children trump someone else’s elderly parent who possibly has no care visit on Christmas Day? If you’re not there to toilet a 9 year old, presumably dad or another relative can assist if required (unlikely). My MIL would have to sit in it.

If you sign the same contract of employment as everyone else, you have to accept the same terms and take your turn when it comes to holidays.

Are you suggesting people in roles such as nursing, emergency services etc either leave their jobs once they have children, or even weirder don't train or do these roles in case they have children one day.
No. But if you OBJECT to working those days once you've got kids then yes, you shouldn't be working in it. My friend is a nurse. She accepts that's she'll miss some Christmas days. My friend is a GP, she'll see them all but her anaesthetist husband won't - a compromise they're happy with. Lots of parents accept that that's life, you miss some, you see some.

@SleepingStandingUp

Are you suggesting people in roles such as nursing, emergency services etc either leave their jobs once they have children, or even weirder don't train or do these roles in case they have children one day. No. But if you OBJECT to working those days once you've got kids then yes, you shouldn't be working in it. My friend is a nurse. She accepts that's she'll miss some Christmas days. My friend is a GP, she'll see them all but her anaesthetist husband won't - a compromise they're happy with. Lots of parents accept that that's life, you miss some, you see some.

But if they were both anaesthetists they could only work separate shifts with enough time between them to allow childcare handover, which I assume would mean 1 of then isn't working Christmas Day at all... barring available grandparents but with the NHS recruitment system living anywhere near family is not necessarily likely...

Are you suggesting people in roles such as nursing, emergency services etc either leave their jobs once they have children, or even weirder don't train or do these roles in case they have children one day.

But what if they are all parents in the team?

So take a team of 9 care staff - where 3 are needed on Christmas day. They are all parents and they all take in in turns to work 1 Christmas out of every 3.

3 parents leave 3 non-parents join.

Year 1: the non parents work Christmas, but its on a three year rota that's fine

Year 2: one parent is a single parent with a disabled child, one parent has literally no family support, and one parents husband is a doctor and working Christmas day too - the 3 non-parents offer to swap with them

Year 3: the last 3 parents all have partners who can be home Christmas, but they kick up a fuss that they have children and Christmas is for children, even though they previously worked Christmas when they had children when everyone was a parent on the team. By this time of the three non parents - one has an elderly parent who has been alone for the last two years, one has missed her nieces last two Christmases and one has caring responsibilities but they still end up working Christmas.

The first Christmas is fair, the second is kind, the third is unfair.

If you are in the parents in the 2nd year I appreciate your struggles and am more likely to be flexible for you. If you are the parents in the 3rd year you are being entitled and unfair.

If you are working in a job that required Christmas work, do you not consider this in advance, in case everyone has children? After all if you only have 1 childless person in the team (not that unusual in smaller teams) then you are a bit screwed if they get pregnant.

You cant honestly go years assuming you will get Christmas off and that there will be childless people as a contingency plan can you? That seems very short-sighted.

Finally some people on here are assuming all mothers are perfect mothers. I hope that's because you are all lovely perfect mothers. But what if I know you are an alcoholic who will spend the day yelling at her children? And if you work they get to spend some time with their grandmother who will feed them and be kind. Am I still being unkind if I am the one who has Christmas off? Are you still utterly convinced I am a selfish witch spoiling some child's Christmas?

But if they were both anaesthetists they could only work separate shifts with enough time between them to allow childcare handover, which I assume would mean 1 of then isn't working Christmas Day at all... barring available grandparents but with the NHS recruitment system living anywhere near family is not necessarily likely...
Which is why she's a GP. if she'd wanted to be an anaesthetist too and have kids, I'd expect them to think about that before having a meltdown at work because you've both been rostered on on Christmas day. So the kids go to Grannies for the week, it's agreed Jane will swap with you if you end up in this situation, Dad swaps to a different job etc. But it would be THEIR responsibility to think that through, not all the childless staff to run around accommodating them

@jaffacakesareepic I think the error you’re making is thinking some posters care about anyone’s children other than their own. If there were no childless people they’d do the same thing to each other but instead of “Christmas is for kids” it’d be “Christmas is for kids under 5, yours are 7 so they don’t need the magic as much”.

YABU I would always put a child's right to spend time with their parents above my own needs. Obviously this should be within reason