To think this is how violent men get their start in life?

[Anycrispsleft]

I wanted to know if you think I'm being U in this scenario, with a boy from my daughters' class. I'll try and tell the whole story from start to finish, but for a bit of background - my 9yo twin (shut up Mumsnet, they really are twins ) are in school with a boy, G, and a girl, M. All 4 of them have known each other since nursery, and at nursery they got on OK as most kids do, but since then G's behaviour has gone downhill a bit and he's hit one of my kids a couple of times and is often in trouble at school. Ms mum has been an unofficial childminder for G most of his life: he lives with his dad, a lone parent until about 18 months ago when he got married, so he and M are often together.

The first stushie was about 6 months ago. M Skyped one of my kids one Sunday afternoon and invited them to go and play in her garden.

1. my kids turned up - G was there as well, being looked after by M's mum/on a playdate
2. M went and played with my kids in preference to G
3. G tried to interrupt their game by taking their stuff
4. The girls retaliated by hiding their stuff from him (and probably laughing at him and stuff, I'm not saying they were particularly kind)
5. He went home in a strop and said the three of them hadn't been nice to him
6. My two came home, also in a strop, said G had been disrupting their game and acting like an idiot - I asked them whether they'd called him any names or hit him or anything - no (and I am inclined to believe them, bc at the very least if one of them had been a fecker they would have come back up the road fighting about who caused the fight)
7. The dad phones me and tells me his boy is upset and I need to talk to my kids and tell them to apologise. I tell him they've already talked to me about it and I don't see any reason for them to apologise any more than he should, that it all sounds like like normal kid falling-out and if the kids don't want to play with each other I'm not going to force them.
8. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he also phones M's mum. M's mum takes her up to his house and makes M apologise.
9. The day after M skypes my daughter to say she's not allowed to play with her any more. I tell M she's always welcome at our house.

M's mother never got in touch with me, so I was left in this weird limbo. I wasn't there, G's dad wasn't there, M's mum never spoke to me about the incident, so nobody was actually accusing my kids of anything to me but they couldn't see their friend any more and they were supposed to apologise for something (but G's dad couldn't exactly say what)? I concluded that they're all fucking mental G's dad is maybe paying M to childmind G, and so she feels obliged to make sure he has a nice time and stays to the end of the playdate, and maybe didn't want my kids there at all, but didn't feel like she could say that? Anyway not my monkeys etc... I told the kids not to go down there, we had M over for a few playdates organised by the kids themselves, and all was reasonably quiet.
Then, a couple of weeks ago, my kids were coming out of afterschool and the boy was still playing in the playground with one of his friends. He was like "na na na, you have to go to extra school" and my older daughter was like "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" and she waved the sweeties at him and he and his friend chased her down the road, tried to get the sweets off her, then tried to strangle her, before my other daughter and their wee friend from afterschool pulled him off.
Given my opinion of the dad isn't great I said to them to just tell the school in the first instance. The teacher dealt with it pretty robustly, giving them the two of them pretty thoroughly into trouble and making them write an apology to my daughter. I thought that was an end to it - my daughter wasn't that bothered about it - and then on Thursday night I get 3 missed calls and 2 messages on my phone from the dad wanting to speak to me. I just deleted them, then he ran into my husband and chewed his ear off for about half an hour about how after this recent episode the boy had been complaining that he had to apologise and my daughter's had not had to apologise for that time 6 months ago, and the dad said he felt that it had been playing on the boy's mind, and that maybe it had even been responsible for the worsening of his behaviour over the past 6 months. He left his phone number, and asked us to think about it over the weekend. That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest, and not say the fact that his father had just got married and his new sister had been born, about a month before? That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence? I mean TBH there's no point me putting this in AIBU because there is no way on this earth I would make my daughter apologise to that wee guy. I'm amazed though. That anybody could think that's a normal way to raise your kids.

To a certain extent you are correct. A disenfranchised child who is already feeling alienated by his family and then being alienated from his peer group is probably going not going to improve their behaviour.

YANBU.

Whilst yanbu about the scenario, I don't think you can say that this is how violent men get their start in life. Don't tar the poor kid with that!

@Sargass0

To a certain extent you are correct. A disenfranchised child who is already feeling alienated by his family and then being alienated from his peer group is probably going not going to improve their behaviour.

You said it better than I could @Sargass0. Sounds like G's been handed some tough cards in life.

He's clearly been behaving badly. So, by the sounds of it, have your DC. What's their excuse? Are they also suffering the effects of a disrupted home life and peer exclusion? Or do they just bait other kids and engage in excluding behaviour because they're unpleasant children?

he and his friend chased her down the road, tried to get the sweets off her, then tried to strangle her, before my other daughter and their wee friend from afterschool pulled him off.

This is the one bit where I think you have a point. Kids need to be taught that violence is never acceptable. For the rest, they all sound as bad as each other, but the dad should have disciplined G and made him apologise for this.

I feel really sorry for this boy, he is included in a play date but excluded by the host and a set of twins also at the residence! I think he was bullied and when the parent raised this, you minimised it and refused to acknowledge this and whilst I agree your children shouldn't have to play with someone they don't like, it's not ok to exclude someone as part of a group.

This has now escalated to a point where he is angry and whilst I don't condone his behaviour, you have been quick to judge him, his family and now label him as a 9 year old boy!

I don't see that anyone comes out of this well!

I think I would have asked my kids to apologise for excluding the boy. But doesn’t excuse his violent behaviour.

I agree the strangling is very worrying. Ans I agree that not playing with someone on a playdate 6 months before is not connected.

But I dont agree your daughter did nothing wrong, in the original playdate if there are only 4 of you then its rude and unacceptable to exclude just one person. No wonder he was upset then. And I think she should have been told off and made to apologise then.

That doesn't excuse the recent incident as they are two separate things and I think the dad is making a big mistake trying to make excuses for his son and not coming down on him like a tonne of bricks

YANBU, you’re right, that is exactly what G is learning at home.

How did your H respond to G’s dad?

Sometimes we apologise to friends for hurting them when we didn't mean to. By 9 there is often a difference in what girls and boys want to play so with 3 girls, it was likely that he'd be excluded, even if not intentionally. So I do think your kids could have apologised for upsetting him. But that wouldn't mean they had to always play with him, more that they should be aware of everybody in the place they are.

It's also a bit complicated if M's mum was babysitting him, because M could want to play with her friends and he's there for "work", not a play date. But still there's nothing wrong with apologising when you upset a friend unintentionally.

However, the lad clearly has social difficulties and the father is clearly not going to take any responsibility at all. Hopefully someone will help him, but there's definitely a possible trajectory ahead of him in which he learns his behaviour is purely other people's fault. Does this bode well for the boy's future behaviours? At the moment, sadly not.

The attempted strangling is awful.

However, your twins WERE nasty in the first incident. The boy was there before your twins and was then excluded from playing with them, including them hiding toys from him. And your daughter baited him waving sweets at him. I'm not excusing his behaviour but your children were pretty nasty too

@sparepantsandtoothbrush

The attempted strangling is awful.

However, your twins WERE nasty in the first incident. The boy was there before your twins and was then excluded from playing with them, including them hiding toys from him. And your daughter baited him waving sweets at him. I'm not excusing his behaviour but your children were pretty nasty too

Why should girls play with boys who hit them? Why normalise that?

They’re 9 years old. Why wasn’t the child minder keeping a closer eye on her mindee and ensuring they were all getting on?

She’s not a brilliant child minder is she?

I wouldn’t force my children to play with kids they don’t want to play with in case the consequence is they’ll be physically assaulted. They clearly don’t get on with this boy and wouldn’t be part of eachothers friendship group at school, so didn’t play with him at the child minders. He’s not nice to them they don’t want to play with him. That normal consequences.

The boy sounds like his father is pretty crap trying to blame everyone but looking at his own set up for the behaviour of his child.

No I would not make my children apologise to someone who tried to strangle them. He did need to face consequences for his behaviour and I’m glad the school dealt with it appropriately.

The father sounds like a shit parent and I can see completely why his son is angry and full of pent up violent rage.
Worrying that there’s a vulnerable new baby in their household.

When I think of times when one of my kids were excluded on a play date I didn’t realise I could then demand apologies and allow my kids to attack others. I was obviously doing it all wrong 🤔

I’m sorry - these responses are proving OP’s point!!!!

“The strangling was bad but ...”

BUT?
BUT????

The strangling was horrific full stop!!
THE FUCKING STRANGLING!!!

This is exactly the “but she provoked him” attitude that excuses abusers in adulthood.

Victim blaming

“Crimes of passion”

And that crap.

Disgusting

I think if violent kids (let's be honest, it's mostly boys) are left to behave however they want with a sympathising parent telling them they're the injurred party then yes, we shouldn't be surprised when the little fuckers turn into violent grown adults.

Completely off topic but if anyone strangled or attempted to strangle my daughter, I would be returning the favour. Violence is the only language that some dickheads understand.

@Bonheurdupasse

I’m sorry - these responses are proving OP’s point!!!!

“The strangling was bad but ...”

BUT?
BUT????

The strangling was horrific full stop!!
THE FUCKING STRANGLING!!!

This is exactly the “but she provoked him” attitude that excuses abusers in adulthood.

Victim blaming

“Crimes of passion”

And that crap.

Disgusting

Agree 💯

Why should girls play with boys who hit them? Why normalise that?

He hadn't hit them at that point.

Yes, he had, OP said that he’s hit them a couple of times previously.

There seems to be a lot of 9 year olds having zero supervision, why wasn’t there an adult present to prevent kids teasing others about getting sweets and stop other kids being physical with them?

None of the kids come out of school this well tbh. Your children deliberately excluded this boy and I think something more happened given the other girl apologised and your children were banned.
The strangling is absolutely awful but I don't understand why your children were wandering around after school club had finished. Do you not meet them after the club?
This boy has had a pretty tough life with lots of changes which doesn't excuse his awful behaviour but it's not an indication of what he'll be like as an adult.

@Landlubber2019

I feel really sorry for this boy, he is included in a play date but excluded by the host and a set of twins also at the residence! I think he was bullied and when the parent raised this, you minimised it and refused to acknowledge this and whilst I agree your children shouldn't have to play with someone they don't like, it's not ok to exclude someone as part of a group.

This has now escalated to a point where he is angry and whilst I don't condone his behaviour, you have been quick to judge him, his family and now label him as a 9 year old boy!

I don't see that anyone comes out of this well!

This.

@tallduckandhandsome

Yes, he had, OP said that he’s hit them a couple of times previously.

She said the play date when they excluded him was the first "Stushie" (i don't know what that meant though! I assumed "altercation")

Splitting the two incidents apart completely.

1st incident, your kids were mean and should be taught that isn't acceptable.

2nd incident, boy was completely in the wrong.

Not sure what stushie means either (?!) but OP says:

“All 4 of them have known each other since nursery, and at nursery they got on OK as most kids do, but since then G's behaviour has gone downhill a bit and he's hit one of my kids a couple of times and is often in trouble at school.”

Violence is the only language that some dickheads understand.

This isn't a 'dickhead', it's a troubled 9yo boy . I agree that his violent behaviour is concerning and his parent doesn't seem to be taking it seriously.

In the OP's shoes, though, while I would be telling my DC to stay away from him where possible, I wouldn't allow them to taunt him, be mean to him and deliberately exclude him when in a small group with him.

You're absolutely right - just because he's a boy, doesn't mean he should get away with violence. But he didn't - he was punished by the school who took it very seriously (even if his dad didn't).

But just because the OP's children are girls doesn't mean that they should be allowed to get away with mean and spiteful behaviour. They can choose not to play with him or invite him to theirs but they should do it quietly with making a big deal about it or taunting him with his exclusion.