To think this is how violent men get their start in life?

[Anycrispsleft]

I wanted to know if you think I'm being U in this scenario, with a boy from my daughters' class. I'll try and tell the whole story from start to finish, but for a bit of background - my 9yo twin (shut up Mumsnet, they really are twins ) are in school with a boy, G, and a girl, M. All 4 of them have known each other since nursery, and at nursery they got on OK as most kids do, but since then G's behaviour has gone downhill a bit and he's hit one of my kids a couple of times and is often in trouble at school. Ms mum has been an unofficial childminder for G most of his life: he lives with his dad, a lone parent until about 18 months ago when he got married, so he and M are often together.

The first stushie was about 6 months ago. M Skyped one of my kids one Sunday afternoon and invited them to go and play in her garden.

1. my kids turned up - G was there as well, being looked after by M's mum/on a playdate
2. M went and played with my kids in preference to G
3. G tried to interrupt their game by taking their stuff
4. The girls retaliated by hiding their stuff from him (and probably laughing at him and stuff, I'm not saying they were particularly kind)
5. He went home in a strop and said the three of them hadn't been nice to him
6. My two came home, also in a strop, said G had been disrupting their game and acting like an idiot - I asked them whether they'd called him any names or hit him or anything - no (and I am inclined to believe them, bc at the very least if one of them had been a fecker they would have come back up the road fighting about who caused the fight)
7. The dad phones me and tells me his boy is upset and I need to talk to my kids and tell them to apologise. I tell him they've already talked to me about it and I don't see any reason for them to apologise any more than he should, that it all sounds like like normal kid falling-out and if the kids don't want to play with each other I'm not going to force them.
8. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he also phones M's mum. M's mum takes her up to his house and makes M apologise.
9. The day after M skypes my daughter to say she's not allowed to play with her any more. I tell M she's always welcome at our house.

M's mother never got in touch with me, so I was left in this weird limbo. I wasn't there, G's dad wasn't there, M's mum never spoke to me about the incident, so nobody was actually accusing my kids of anything to me but they couldn't see their friend any more and they were supposed to apologise for something (but G's dad couldn't exactly say what)? I concluded that they're all fucking mental G's dad is maybe paying M to childmind G, and so she feels obliged to make sure he has a nice time and stays to the end of the playdate, and maybe didn't want my kids there at all, but didn't feel like she could say that? Anyway not my monkeys etc... I told the kids not to go down there, we had M over for a few playdates organised by the kids themselves, and all was reasonably quiet.
Then, a couple of weeks ago, my kids were coming out of afterschool and the boy was still playing in the playground with one of his friends. He was like "na na na, you have to go to extra school" and my older daughter was like "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" and she waved the sweeties at him and he and his friend chased her down the road, tried to get the sweets off her, then tried to strangle her, before my other daughter and their wee friend from afterschool pulled him off.
Given my opinion of the dad isn't great I said to them to just tell the school in the first instance. The teacher dealt with it pretty robustly, giving them the two of them pretty thoroughly into trouble and making them write an apology to my daughter. I thought that was an end to it - my daughter wasn't that bothered about it - and then on Thursday night I get 3 missed calls and 2 messages on my phone from the dad wanting to speak to me. I just deleted them, then he ran into my husband and chewed his ear off for about half an hour about how after this recent episode the boy had been complaining that he had to apologise and my daughter's had not had to apologise for that time 6 months ago, and the dad said he felt that it had been playing on the boy's mind, and that maybe it had even been responsible for the worsening of his behaviour over the past 6 months. He left his phone number, and asked us to think about it over the weekend. That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest, and not say the fact that his father had just got married and his new sister had been born, about a month before? That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence? I mean TBH there's no point me putting this in AIBU because there is no way on this earth I would make my daughter apologise to that wee guy. I'm amazed though. That anybody could think that's a normal way to raise your kids.

Two TOTALLY separate issues.

Your DDs probably should have apologised or you could have indicated to the dad that you'd talk to them. It must feel pretty horrible to be the 'job' at the play date. I think it is probably poor judgement of the childminder to have a playdate on at the same time as work.

The strangling is horrific. If it was my son I'd have made him apologise, regardless whether there had been a previous falling out. Frankly he would be on total lock-down and we'd be doing some serious work on his self esteem and anger. The two instances are not comparable at all. I'd advise your girls to stay well away from him and that unfortunately includes sticking up for themselves as he clearly sees it as provoking.

They ARE NOT TWO SEPARATE ISSUES

the dad is saying because the girls didn’t apologise that is why his son strangled them. Their lack of apologise caused the little thug so much distress he strangled them.

That is the perfect way to turn a child into a violent ENTITLED adult

So in vivainsomnia’s world, a boy initiating by saying, “na na na, you have to go to extra school" to a girl is a “harmless tease”, but the girl responding to the boy, "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" is “shameful”.

That’s an extraordinary double standard.

And you don’t see fit to even mention the boy physically assaulting the girl, trying to steal her property, and strangling her.

You really were taught to hate women and girls, weren’t you? And you’re presumably teaching your own DC to put males ahead of females at all times too.

And you think other parents are the problem.

The violence and strangling is completely unacceptable and a red flag for future problems. Hopefully, the school will ensure this boy receives the help he needs to learn to interact appropriately with others going forward.

Having worked with kids in the past however, one dynamic I've frequently seen is a group of kids essentially 'bear-baiting' another child, often known to be a 'problem' child or with SEN which result in poor impulse control. They taunt and pick at the other child from the safety of the group in the hope of getting them to cross the line and provoking a physical response. A good school (and responsible parents) will work with the other child to put in place strategies to resolve conflict using non-violent approaches and to improve their impulse control. It's difficult to have a lot of sympathy for the kids who think it's fun to bait these kids until they snap, though. The OP will hopefully have an idea about whether her DC fall into this category.

I'm uncomfortable with people calling a little boy a thug. All behaviour is communication- his parents need to work out what he's communicating a day address it. We dont know what adverse childhood experiences this child has had. The strangling is awful, truly awful, but my DS did this a few years back (he was 6) through frustration at being left out/ not played with. He has ASD/ ADHD and can find social communication very difficult. His behaviour was communicating that we had to work harder to try to make him understand how to react/ control his emotions as an ASD child. This child needs someone to work out what he's communicating.

Gliderx I know exactly what you mean- I've been there.

So hosts child invites friends over to play they then go and play

G disrupts play and tries to take the toys away the other three retaliate in a childish way because they are children

Gs dad demands an apology despite the fact that the twins technically didn't start this situation the childminders child actually started it by inviting other children and "excluding" G you quite rightly refuse its a baby spat no-one needs to abase themselves and make it a BIG DEAL

now your child has been attacked by G and his dad thinks it's because you didn't apologise for doing nothing particularly wrong in the first place

He sounds like a charmer

You should distance yourself and encourage your children to do the same

Any child that strangles and hits another child is a thug.
Of course if your child is ASD it’s different.

You can change a child from being a thug, but then the parent has got to not be a thug too. And it doesn’t sound like this ones is.

OP herself says everything started that day the girls bullied him.

“na na na, you have to go to extra school" to a girl is a “harmless tease”, but the girl responding to the boy, "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" is “shameful”
Of course. The first is just that a tease. No name calling. Telling someone 'bite me loser' is certainly another league.

If roles were reversed and it was one of OPs girl who'd been excluded at a play invite, lagged at and more, I'm sure the responses would be very different.

I said they were separate issues as the first really doesn't come at all close to justifying the second. The fact that the girls didn't apologise is in no way justification for the boy strangling them!

I personally think it was up to the childminder to resolve the first issue - the girls should have apologised at the time or she should have put it right with the Dad if the boy was that upset.

I also don't like children being called thugs. Some serious intervention is clearly needed and a massive change in parenting.

@vivainsomnia

OP herself says everything started that day the girls bullied him.

“na na na, you have to go to extra school" to a girl is a “harmless tease”, but the girl responding to the boy, "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" is “shameful”
Of course. The first is just that a tease. No name calling. Telling someone 'bite me loser' is certainly another league.

If roles were reversed and it was one of OPs girl who'd been excluded at a play invite, lagged at and more, I'm sure the responses would be very different.

OP clearly wrote that something was amiss before the incident at the childminder's house: since [nursery] G's behaviour has gone downhill a bit and he's hit one of my kids a couple of times

Why would you wish girls to play with someone who has hit one of them on previous occasions and was trying to disrupt their games?

I wouldn't regard "extra school" as a "harmless tease" unless I don't understand the context. Is "extra school" not a euphemism for extra tuition for children with SEN/SpLD in most areas?

@vivainsomnia the child was not invited to a palydate and ignored.

The boy has a history of violent behaviour towards OP’s DD’s.

The DD’s were invited to a play date by their friend.

G was also there as a mindee not a guest at the play date.

The girls wanted to play together.

The boy got angry and tried to take thief property from them the girls hid their toys in retaliation.

If my DC went to a CM where they didn’t get on with the CM’s child. I’d be looking at alternative childcare arrangements. Not justifying my child’s violent behaviour.

Where is everyone getting a diagnosis of asd from?

Not everyone bought up in a chaotic environment has asd

The child might not even come from a chaotic environment just one where he was mainly raised by his dad his stepmother didn't come out of nowhere you don't just wake up and get married one day so he has clearly been parented by two and more adults yet his goto is to blame others and attack you have to wonder why? Where does the strangulation come from? He must have seen it or heard of it from somewhere

Unkind adults have often had difficult childhoods. Yes.

I feel sorry for G. He's only 9 but it looks like he'd had a tough life and a shit dad and is losing his way.

However, he's not your twins' problem to fix. I would tell them to keep away from him and would request that the school keep them apart where possible, given his violent behaviour.

G was also there as a mindee not a guest at the play date.

That's not a distinction a child would really understand. I'm sure the childminder didn't put 'danger' tape around him; 'MINDEE. DO NOT CROSS'.

@vivainsomnia

OP herself says everything started that day the girls bullied him.

“na na na, you have to go to extra school" to a girl is a “harmless tease”, but the girl responding to the boy, "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" is “shameful”
Of course. The first is just that a tease. No name calling. Telling someone 'bite me loser' is certainly another league.

If roles were reversed and it was one of OPs girl who'd been excluded at a play invite, lagged at and more, I'm sure the responses would be very different.

I really hope you’re not a parent, or a teacher, or in any position of authority over children with these attitudes.

The boy started it. His clear intention was to mock the girl, put her down, make out she was a loser. This is what you are calling a “harmless tease”: an intention to make somebody else feel bad about a situation they have no control over, ie being in after school club while he was out playing.

She responded admirably in the moment by turning it back on him and clarifying that she didn’t feel that she’d lost out at all by being in after school club, and that in fact he was the one who’d missed out.

Remember, she wouldn’t have said anything if he hadn’t set out with the intention to diminish her. She didn’t start out with the intention to mock or belittle him, as he did her. But when he did, she retaliated. With words, same as he used. Good for her. She defended herself against his mean comment, in an entirely proportionate way.

He then escalated to physical violence.

And you are portraying him as her victim, a boy who’s already hit her or her sister on more than one occasion.

It’s staggering, the fact you’re so willing to whitewash what he said, deny the deliberately mean intention behind it, in order to exonerate the boy and blame the girl.

I have to wonder in what other situations you find that it’s always the female person’s fault.

@Gliderx so what?

M isn’t allowed to have her fiends over to play with?

She’s got to constantly put up with a volatile violent boy in her home and avoid having friends over as her friends (and probably she herself) doesn’t want to play with a boy who hits her but has to put up with as he’s her mums mindee.

I feel sorry for the girls not allowed to have healthy normal social interactions, because they have to avoid/be kind of a violent child’s feelings above their own.

This is not at all an issue that should be dealt with by children.

The adults should be ensuring G receives help and is patented properly.

The girls are collateral damage due G’s shit father and his utter lack of parenting.

Well people keep making excuses for his shitty behaviour so of course he’s going to see what else he can get away with.

Can’t imagine 2 boys strangling my daughter and one of their dads being able to even approach my husband to say it’s her fault? I think he might get strangled himself tbh.
The dad sounds like a dickhead, so does his son. But he’s just had a daughter to that’s gonna be fun for him.

Actually op I think MN is evidencing how violent men get their start in life.

Male violence is just one part of male entitlement.

This boy wasn’t entitled to play with your dds and their friend. Girls do not exist to owe a boy play mates. If Ms mum was child minding him then she should have been entertaining him if your dds (who didn’t invite him) didn’t want to play with him.

Girls are allowed to have boundaries. They don’t need to play with a boy if they don’t want. As you wrote he had hot girls before they likely already have valid reasons to want firm boundaries but even if this wasn’t the case they are allowed to say no.

MN sympathy for him being unwanted is misogyny. It’s awww poor boy had his feelz hurtz, as if your dds & their girl friend owed him their time just because the mum chose to have him round without his own parent’s supervision. Ms mum should have been supervising them well enough that at the point it was obvious the girls wanted boundaries she knew to take him home or entertain him with some other activity. He should never have had the opportunity to steal from them or the girls laugh at him for it.

The dad excusing his behaviour by victim
blaming your dd is disgusting.

I do think you are unreasonable to be so laid back about a boy strangling your dd though. Are you aware strangulation was made a crime equal to rape a couple of years ago now- because men who strangle women have a 4 times greater likelihood of murdering a woman at some point, compared to men who commit other acts of violence. 9 year old boys do not normally strangle girls. Those who do often escalate and that’s a very serious risk to girls. I’d want to know the safeguarding action plan school are putting in place based on their risk assessment following this. I’d also be calling the police. Even if not old enough to be criminally responsible yet (although that depends on which part of the uk you are in) community police officers will still take a report and keep on file for other future reports.

Asd is a red herring and disgusting disablism from posters here. Both my girls have severe asd (&pda & Adhd) and would never put their hands on anyone ever, many many girls diagnosed with these disabilities would never put their hands on anyone. The differentiating factor is boys do this, not just boys with asd, and very very rarely do girls do this, asd or not.

A rough start in life isn’t the differentiating factor either. I had a horrific childhood and would never hurt anyone. Revicimisation is the most common outcome of childhood abuse or dysfunction, not harming others. Those who go onto be violent are male, not female. Official crime stats show 90%+ of all violence and 99% of all sexual violence is committed by men, despite the numerous studies that show girls are more likely to be victims of abuse.

The fact male entitlement gets excused and socialised like it is here is the cause of male violence. Male socialisation is the differentiating factor. It doesn’t always show as violence, sometimes it’s just entitlement in other ways, or misogyny, but it all comes from the same root problem of social conditioning of male entitlement.

The fundamental blame here lies not with any of the children but with G’s father and M’s mother. They shouldn’t be foisting G on M like this.

If M actually enjoyed G’s company I doubt she would have invited her actual friends round while he was there. And if she doesn’t enjoy his company, not surprisingly given he’s been violent in the past, her mother shouldn’t be making her socialise with him on a weekend afternoon.

Girls should not be learning that they owe time and attention to boys they don’t particularly like. They should not be learning that they have to tolerate violent behaviour from boys. No wonder there’s so much male entitlement and male violence when people (including some on this thread) are still teaching girls and boys these toxic lessons.

Great post, RedCarpetRebellion.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

I wonder how you’d enjoy it, vivainsomnia, if you were forced to spend your Sunday afternoon with a male colleague of yours you knew to be capable of being aggressive and physically violent.

I’m still wondering how you’d feel if put in this situation, vivainsomnia.

I would just say that having thought about it over the weekend you can still never see any justification for violence.

The differentiating factor is boys do this, not just boys with asd, and very very rarely do girls do this, asd or not.

And likewise many boys with ASD would never be violent like this.