To think this is how violent men get their start in life?

[Anycrispsleft]

I wanted to know if you think I'm being U in this scenario, with a boy from my daughters' class. I'll try and tell the whole story from start to finish, but for a bit of background - my 9yo twin (shut up Mumsnet, they really are twins ) are in school with a boy, G, and a girl, M. All 4 of them have known each other since nursery, and at nursery they got on OK as most kids do, but since then G's behaviour has gone downhill a bit and he's hit one of my kids a couple of times and is often in trouble at school. Ms mum has been an unofficial childminder for G most of his life: he lives with his dad, a lone parent until about 18 months ago when he got married, so he and M are often together.

The first stushie was about 6 months ago. M Skyped one of my kids one Sunday afternoon and invited them to go and play in her garden.

1. my kids turned up - G was there as well, being looked after by M's mum/on a playdate
2. M went and played with my kids in preference to G
3. G tried to interrupt their game by taking their stuff
4. The girls retaliated by hiding their stuff from him (and probably laughing at him and stuff, I'm not saying they were particularly kind)
5. He went home in a strop and said the three of them hadn't been nice to him
6. My two came home, also in a strop, said G had been disrupting their game and acting like an idiot - I asked them whether they'd called him any names or hit him or anything - no (and I am inclined to believe them, bc at the very least if one of them had been a fecker they would have come back up the road fighting about who caused the fight)
7. The dad phones me and tells me his boy is upset and I need to talk to my kids and tell them to apologise. I tell him they've already talked to me about it and I don't see any reason for them to apologise any more than he should, that it all sounds like like normal kid falling-out and if the kids don't want to play with each other I'm not going to force them.
8. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he also phones M's mum. M's mum takes her up to his house and makes M apologise.
9. The day after M skypes my daughter to say she's not allowed to play with her any more. I tell M she's always welcome at our house.

M's mother never got in touch with me, so I was left in this weird limbo. I wasn't there, G's dad wasn't there, M's mum never spoke to me about the incident, so nobody was actually accusing my kids of anything to me but they couldn't see their friend any more and they were supposed to apologise for something (but G's dad couldn't exactly say what)? I concluded that they're all fucking mental G's dad is maybe paying M to childmind G, and so she feels obliged to make sure he has a nice time and stays to the end of the playdate, and maybe didn't want my kids there at all, but didn't feel like she could say that? Anyway not my monkeys etc... I told the kids not to go down there, we had M over for a few playdates organised by the kids themselves, and all was reasonably quiet.
Then, a couple of weeks ago, my kids were coming out of afterschool and the boy was still playing in the playground with one of his friends. He was like "na na na, you have to go to extra school" and my older daughter was like "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" and she waved the sweeties at him and he and his friend chased her down the road, tried to get the sweets off her, then tried to strangle her, before my other daughter and their wee friend from afterschool pulled him off.
Given my opinion of the dad isn't great I said to them to just tell the school in the first instance. The teacher dealt with it pretty robustly, giving them the two of them pretty thoroughly into trouble and making them write an apology to my daughter. I thought that was an end to it - my daughter wasn't that bothered about it - and then on Thursday night I get 3 missed calls and 2 messages on my phone from the dad wanting to speak to me. I just deleted them, then he ran into my husband and chewed his ear off for about half an hour about how after this recent episode the boy had been complaining that he had to apologise and my daughter's had not had to apologise for that time 6 months ago, and the dad said he felt that it had been playing on the boy's mind, and that maybe it had even been responsible for the worsening of his behaviour over the past 6 months. He left his phone number, and asked us to think about it over the weekend. That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest, and not say the fact that his father had just got married and his new sister had been born, about a month before? That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence? I mean TBH there's no point me putting this in AIBU because there is no way on this earth I would make my daughter apologise to that wee guy. I'm amazed though. That anybody could think that's a normal way to raise your kids.

@Cattitudes

The differentiating factor is boys do this, not just boys with asd, and very very rarely do girls do this, asd or not.

And likewise many boys with ASD would never be violent like this.

Plenty of boys with or without asd aren’t violent to girls. But the majority of boys, asd or not, will grow up evidencing lots of other types of male entitlement and misogyny.

Some parents make a very conscious effort to counter male socialisation and to ensure boys who exhibit male entitlement are pulled up on it. But plenty don’t. And even the amazing aware parents who take concerted steps to address this with their own boys don’t necessarily counter the massive influence of socialisation.

I absolutely would have made sure my twins apologised to that boy the first Place. Why were your children being so unpleasant to him and why do you think it's okay that the host child went to play with your children "in preference". Seriously, how unkind are these children. Your children at their age should have more empathy for others and insisted that everyone is included, they were responsible just as much as host child. Very very cruel.
The dad was being very reasonable to ask your children to apologise. Some dads wouldn't have bothered even listening to their children's awful experience. Yes ,it's not the same as putting your hands on someone but absolutely, cruel and can be very damaging to a child. To be honest, I think your twins sound very mean. None of my four have ever or would ever accept a child being left out of a game. The child wasn't being an "idiot" for no reason.
Also,why does your daughter think it's okay to call anyone a loser at 9 years of age!!!!!! Really,why are you writing this as if it's all acceptable. Yes she could have said well I got sweets so I don't mind..why be so nasty.
Yes, of course,strangling or hitting or kicking is absolutely uncalled for but seriously,all this could have easily being avoided. You need to speak to your kids about their behaviour and maybe model better, where are they seeing this behaviour???

Why were your children being so unpleasant to him

I wonder if you missed the part of the OP that explained the boy had previous history of hitting one of the girls?

@Wisteriac43

Two TOTALLY separate issues.

Your DDs probably should have apologised or you could have indicated to the dad that you'd talk to them. It must feel pretty horrible to be the 'job' at the play date. I think it is probably poor judgement of the childminder to have a playdate on at the same time as work.

The strangling is horrific. If it was my son I'd have made him apologise, regardless whether there had been a previous falling out. Frankly he would be on total lock-down and we'd be doing some serious work on his self esteem and anger. The two instances are not comparable at all. I'd advise your girls to stay well away from him and that unfortunately includes sticking up for themselves as he clearly sees it as provoking.

You’d be working on his ‘self esteem’

Violent men tend to have inflated self esteem and sense of their own importance. They view others, mostly women and girls, as objects they are entitled to, as props to make them feel better. If your ds did what this boy did it wouldn’t be self esteem that needed worked on, it would be his empathy for the half of the human race that his mother belongs to and his selfish and entitlement that lets him think it’s fine to commit a violent crime on a girl.

Men don’t go around raping, beating or murdering women and girls because they have poor self esteem. Don’t misunderstand or misrepresent that because it feeds into the rhetoric that poor men can’t help hurting women. It’s enabling them.

I can’t take anyone seriously on here that’s said
he shouldn’t of strangled but

Yes he strangled but

All the BUTS

😂😂

He would be a nice boy that wasn’t entitled to any female’s attention BUT he wasn’t raised properly and his Dad blames everyone else BUT I wonder if that little girl that was stabbed by all those boys in Liverpool should just have not opened her mouth? I wonder if strangling a female is ever justified?

Please tell me you BUT commenters do not have daughters to protect. Or even sons to excuse this behaviour.

It doesn’t matter what a woman says, it doesn’t justify being strangled, FYI.

The victim blaming here is interesting.

Agree @Hertsgirl10

As strangulation is a crime now equal to rape I think all the posters saying ‘but’ should replace strangulation to RAPE in their posts and see if they view it any differently now.

@RedCarpetRebellion

Agree *@Hertsgirl10*

As strangulation is a crime now equal to rape I think all the posters saying ‘but’ should replace strangulation to RAPE in their posts and see if they view it any differently now.

@RedCarpetRebellion

It’s actually terrifying isn’t it?
I have boys and a girl and wouldn’t excuse this shit if it was one of my boys, I can’t believe people are excusing this. They think they’re not which is actually even more scary.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

There is currently a system in place whereby all incidents of racism in a school setting, primary as well as secondary, must by law be reported to the LA, to build up a picture of the scale of the issue.

We need the same system for all incidents of male violence against girls in schools.

Doesn’t that contravene the public sector equality duty?

Unless an equality impact assessment shows one characteristic is at significant detriment then schools/LA have a legal duty not to prioritise any pc over another. In light of ofsteds peer on peer abuse report I don’t see how it’s possible to claim that the only pc that requires this extra treatment is race.

The incident has been taken seriously. The OP reported it to the school and the school punished the boy. The dad does sound like a dead loss, which is concerning for the boy's future.

There's not a lot more the OP can do except tell her own children to steer clear of the boy in future. Also to model kind behaviour to them so they don't evolve into future high school bullies who enjoy mocking socially isolated children.

@TarasCrazyTiara

The boy was in the wrong by being violent obviously but to be honest both your kids and especially your daughter sound pretty cruel themselves.

That’s about it, we can’t read the boys future from this and it would be wrong to do that.

I think you’ll find forensic psychology says otherwise.

There’s a very clear pattern of escalation from earlier violence and entitlement to later more extreme violence. That’s why they try to have early interventions where it’s brought to their attention, because without it it’s almost certain he will pose a serious risk to society.

If the op doesn’t report to the police, if school doesn’t report to the community police officer or social services or both, or if the dad doesn’t access help for him (which his victim blaming makes highly unlikely) then there’s no opportunity for early intervention.

So yeah it’s very likely this is a predator in the making.

@MrsMiddleMother

Like a pp said, the 2 incidents should be separate. The 1st time the 3 girls were in the wrong for excluding him, you are ASSUMING that Ms mother is minding G but you don't actually know so as far as you are aware the 4 kids were on a playmate together and they were mean to the only boy.

The 2nd incident of course the 2 boys were completely in the wrong and the school have dealt with it as they should. Physical violence is never acceptable. Maybe also have a word with your daughter about showing off things to other kids that they may want to take. Obviously most kids wouldn't strangle them for it but not all kids are NT or coping emotionally or mentally.

Tell your kids to stay away from G, they obviously don't get along so distance is the best strategy. Also take some responsibility for your own kids shitty behaviour.

Yes op, be sure you tell your dds not to show off anything others may want.

Cover their bodies up while at it incase boys see them and want them.

Can’t possibly expect boys to have self control if girls have something they want now can you

Telling your kids to stay away from and avoid deliberately goading a vulnerable child who may pose a danger to them is entirely different from telling them to cover up or that others are entitled to their belongings .

It's a bit odd that rather than accept your DCs had misbehaved you concocted an elaborate explanation about M's parent's motivation for her apology and banning your DCs from her house.
Are your twins both girls? Posters seem to be assuming that but I must have missed it.
Your DCs seem quite badly behaved and you don't seem to be addressing it.
The boy's behaviour after school was wrong but you say school dealt with.

@Gliderx

Telling your kids to stay away from and avoid deliberately goading a vulnerable child who may pose a danger to them is entirely different from telling them to cover up or that others are entitled to their belongings .

Pp said ‘maybe have a word with your daughter about showing off things to other kids they might want to take’.

Plenty boys and men want to take sex. So her victim blaming line of thought has everything to do with this.

I wonder if you missed the part of the OP that explained the boy had previous history of hitting one of the girls?
Then why would you send your kids to play somewhere where that child is likely and why is acceptable to be unkind and bullying?

Maybe the bullying has gone on as long as the hitting since OP can't even seem to see it fir what it was.

Jesus Christ.

It's not a normal response for a child to strangle someone.

This boy has seen it somewhere and my first guess would be domestic abuse at home.

I would say that is how violent men (and women) get their start. The normalisation of abuse and violence in family structure where you respond physically and there is no repercussion. Unfortunately it sounds this is the case.

The Dad sounds a bloody nut job. Keep your girls away and consider reporting this instance to the school, completely block his number.

God help the daughters of EVERY SINGLE poster who has commented

'He shouldn't have strangled but'

Girls are not responsible for the violence of boys. Be they nine, nineteen, thirty or onwards.

Regardless of the stressor, this boy was ENTIRELY in the wrong. No two ways about it, no excusals, no explanations.

@Arethechildreninbedyet

Jesus Christ.

It's not a normal response for a child to strangle someone.

This boy has seen it somewhere and my first guess would be domestic abuse at home.

I would say that is how violent men (and women) get their start. The normalisation of abuse and violence in family structure where you respond physically and there is no repercussion. Unfortunately it sounds this is the case.

The Dad sounds a bloody nut job. Keep your girls away and consider reporting this instance to the school, completely block his number.

Only girls are much more likely to be victim of abuse than boys are and it’s very very rare that women go around abusing anyone.

It’s men who feel entitled to do this and that comes from male socialisation to put themselves and their wants first always, to expect girls to be there for whatever they want and for boys to take no accountability for their actions.

*I think you’ll find forensic psychology says otherwise.

There’s a very clear pattern of escalation from earlier violence and entitlement to later more extreme violence. That’s why they try to have early interventions where it’s brought to their attention, because without it it’s almost certain he will pose a serious risk to society.

If the op doesn’t report to the police, if school doesn’t report to the community police officer or social services or both, or if the dad doesn’t access help for him (which his victim blaming makes highly unlikely) then there’s no opportunity for early intervention.

So yeah it’s very likely this is a predator in the making.*

Very true to everything you've said.

Give me the boy until he is seven and I will give you the man. Childhood development is imperative in instances like this.

@RedCarpetRebellion. Pp said ‘maybe have a word with your daughter about showing off things to other kids they might want to take’.

Ok, I agree with you about that, though I think the extension to sex is a bit ridiculous. It's not uncommon for children to be jealous or take things at that age, but the extreme response (strangling) is very concerning.

In any case, nothing is to be gained from the children spending time with each other - it will just spark a circle of verbal bullying and exclusion, followed by potential loss of temper and physical violence, which is a toxic combination all round.

Only girls are much more likely to be victim of abuse than boys are and it’s very very rare that women go around abusing anyone.

Attitudes like this are just as astounding as those excusing boys' behaviour.

It is not very very rare that women are abusive, where in christ have you come up with that?

Women are abusive every single day - to their partners, to their children, to their parents, to siblings etc. To say it's rare does an absolute disservice to their victims.

So dad thinks your daughters caused his already aggressive son to chase one of them down and strangle her. Right ok. Violent outbursts with no consequences from the parents who are excusing it - a recipe to harbour and grow a violent streak.

I'd remind dad that his son physically assaulted your daughter and that if he ever casts aspersions on your parenting or if his son ever so much as looks in their direction again, the next people speaking to his son will be the police. Jumped up little fucker.

[quote Gliderx]**@RedCarpetRebellion. Pp said ‘maybe have a word with your daughter about showing off things to other kids they might want to take’.

Ok, I agree with you about that, though I think the extension to sex is a bit ridiculous. It's not uncommon for children to be jealous or take things at that age, but the extreme response (strangling) is very concerning.

In any case, nothing is to be gained from the children spending time with each other - it will just spark a circle of verbal bullying and exclusion, followed by potential loss of temper and physical violence, which is a toxic combination all round.[/quote]
It wasn’t an extension to sex.

It was an extension to taking sex. Which is rape.

The girls didn’t bully him. They didn’t want to play with a boy who had previously hit them. Girls having boundaries isn’t bullying and a false equivalency to suggest that their boundaries is in any way part of this cycle.

The ‘extreme response’ is a violent crime. Equivalent in law to rape.

If this boy had raped the ops dd would you be arguing the same points? Because the law says it’s an equally serious violent crime, separate from other firms of bodily harm, that is sentenced the same.

Go back and reread all your posts as if the op had typed rape instead of strangulation and then you might see the problem with everything you are saying here.

@Arethechildreninbedyet

Only girls are much more likely to be victim of abuse than boys are and it’s very very rare that women go around abusing anyone.

Attitudes like this are just as astounding as those excusing boys' behaviour.

It is not very very rare that women are abusive, where in christ have you come up with that?

Women are abusive every single day - to their partners, to their children, to their parents, to siblings etc. To say it's rare does an absolute disservice to their victims.

The home office crime statistics.

Head over to fwr and you’ll have thousands of sources of evidence in 5 mins flat.

I am a victim of a highly abusive mother, who handed me over to be raped by her boyfriends. Do not use my experience to down play the reality of that. I’m well aware all the official stats suggest it’s the tiny minority of violence or sexual violence is committed by women and that my experience is usual. That’s why safeguarding risk assessment treat males differently from females.

Only girls are much more likely to be victim of abuse than boys are and it’s very very rare that women go around abusing anyone.

The issue here is that two wrongs don't make a right.

One wrong - the physical assault - is clearly much more serious than the other wrong - verbal bullying and exclusion - even if it was 'triggered' by the first wrong. So the school should come down much harder on it.

That's not to say that the OP shouldn't also look at her own DC's behaviour. Children are pack animals and they often do enjoy turning on a weaker or more socially isolated member of the pack - especially one already stigmatised as 'naughty' or different - and goading them. Those children often know how to stay within the lines and provoke a response from their victim, who is then in the wrong again. It's not rare for girls to bully in this way and it's not something that their parents should be particularly proud of.

I've wondered on reading the news if this wasn't the dynamic which Arthur Labinjo-Hughes was subjected to - provoked into always being the 'naughty' boy, which was used by his step-mum and dad to isolate him, justify his abuse and ultimately led to his death. While there were two other 'good' children in the house being played off against Arthur.