To think this is how violent men get their start in life?

[Anycrispsleft]

I wanted to know if you think I'm being U in this scenario, with a boy from my daughters' class. I'll try and tell the whole story from start to finish, but for a bit of background - my 9yo twin (shut up Mumsnet, they really are twins ) are in school with a boy, G, and a girl, M. All 4 of them have known each other since nursery, and at nursery they got on OK as most kids do, but since then G's behaviour has gone downhill a bit and he's hit one of my kids a couple of times and is often in trouble at school. Ms mum has been an unofficial childminder for G most of his life: he lives with his dad, a lone parent until about 18 months ago when he got married, so he and M are often together.

The first stushie was about 6 months ago. M Skyped one of my kids one Sunday afternoon and invited them to go and play in her garden.

1. my kids turned up - G was there as well, being looked after by M's mum/on a playdate
2. M went and played with my kids in preference to G
3. G tried to interrupt their game by taking their stuff
4. The girls retaliated by hiding their stuff from him (and probably laughing at him and stuff, I'm not saying they were particularly kind)
5. He went home in a strop and said the three of them hadn't been nice to him
6. My two came home, also in a strop, said G had been disrupting their game and acting like an idiot - I asked them whether they'd called him any names or hit him or anything - no (and I am inclined to believe them, bc at the very least if one of them had been a fecker they would have come back up the road fighting about who caused the fight)
7. The dad phones me and tells me his boy is upset and I need to talk to my kids and tell them to apologise. I tell him they've already talked to me about it and I don't see any reason for them to apologise any more than he should, that it all sounds like like normal kid falling-out and if the kids don't want to play with each other I'm not going to force them.
8. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he also phones M's mum. M's mum takes her up to his house and makes M apologise.
9. The day after M skypes my daughter to say she's not allowed to play with her any more. I tell M she's always welcome at our house.

M's mother never got in touch with me, so I was left in this weird limbo. I wasn't there, G's dad wasn't there, M's mum never spoke to me about the incident, so nobody was actually accusing my kids of anything to me but they couldn't see their friend any more and they were supposed to apologise for something (but G's dad couldn't exactly say what)? I concluded that they're all fucking mental G's dad is maybe paying M to childmind G, and so she feels obliged to make sure he has a nice time and stays to the end of the playdate, and maybe didn't want my kids there at all, but didn't feel like she could say that? Anyway not my monkeys etc... I told the kids not to go down there, we had M over for a few playdates organised by the kids themselves, and all was reasonably quiet.
Then, a couple of weeks ago, my kids were coming out of afterschool and the boy was still playing in the playground with one of his friends. He was like "na na na, you have to go to extra school" and my older daughter was like "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" and she waved the sweeties at him and he and his friend chased her down the road, tried to get the sweets off her, then tried to strangle her, before my other daughter and their wee friend from afterschool pulled him off.
Given my opinion of the dad isn't great I said to them to just tell the school in the first instance. The teacher dealt with it pretty robustly, giving them the two of them pretty thoroughly into trouble and making them write an apology to my daughter. I thought that was an end to it - my daughter wasn't that bothered about it - and then on Thursday night I get 3 missed calls and 2 messages on my phone from the dad wanting to speak to me. I just deleted them, then he ran into my husband and chewed his ear off for about half an hour about how after this recent episode the boy had been complaining that he had to apologise and my daughter's had not had to apologise for that time 6 months ago, and the dad said he felt that it had been playing on the boy's mind, and that maybe it had even been responsible for the worsening of his behaviour over the past 6 months. He left his phone number, and asked us to think about it over the weekend. That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest, and not say the fact that his father had just got married and his new sister had been born, about a month before? That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence? I mean TBH there's no point me putting this in AIBU because there is no way on this earth I would make my daughter apologise to that wee guy. I'm amazed though. That anybody could think that's a normal way to raise your kids.

I've met a few violent adults in my time. All of them were mollycoddled and never had consequences for actions. Parents who made constant excuses for bad behaviour

@Gliderx

Only girls are much more likely to be victim of abuse than boys are and it’s very very rare that women go around abusing anyone.

The issue here is that two wrongs don't make a right.

One wrong - the physical assault - is clearly much more serious than the other wrong - verbal bullying and exclusion - even if it was 'triggered' by the first wrong. So the school should come down much harder on it.

That's not to say that the OP shouldn't also look at her own DC's behaviour. Children are pack animals and they often do enjoy turning on a weaker or more socially isolated member of the pack - especially one already stigmatised as 'naughty' or different - and goading them. Those children often know how to stay within the lines and provoke a response from their victim, who is then in the wrong again. It's not rare for girls to bully in this way and it's not something that their parents should be particularly proud of.

I've wondered on reading the news if this wasn't the dynamic which Arthur Labinjo-Hughes was subjected to - provoked into always being the 'naughty' boy, which was used by his step-mum and dad to isolate him, justify his abuse and ultimately led to his death. While there were two other 'good' children in the house being played off against Arthur.

Again, girls having boundaries is not victimising anyone.

Again, girls having boundaries is not victimising anyone.

There's a difference between having boundaries and bullying. Taunting, mocking and deliberate exclusion are bullying.

@Gliderx

Again, girls having boundaries is not victimising anyone.

There's a difference between having boundaries and bullying. Taunting, mocking and deliberate exclusion are bullying.

Deliberately excluding him if they don’t want to play with him, after him having already been violent, is having boundaries. And they have every right to do this.

Ms mother should never have abdicated her duty to supervise them, and never let it get to them laughing at him AFTER he stole their toys, but it’s likely 9 year old girls left without support of an adult reacted the only way they knew how to after their boundaries were violated by a boy disregarding their wish to play without him stole their toys so they couldn’t play.

Now, as I asked, how about you read back all your responses but put rape in place of strangulation. Because the government made it a crime equal to rape, a separate crime to other bodily harm, under uk law.

@RedCarpetRebellion how have I 'used your experience to downplay the reality of that?'

You said it was very very rare and that does a disservice to anyone who has been abused by women.

It is less common certainly but in absolutely no way very very rare.

Home Office Statistics are all well and good but are only indicative of crimes that have been reported/prosecuted.

According to the ONS 1/3 victims of domestic abuse are men and an estimated 49% of men in abusive relationships will not report domestic abuse.

In cases where physical abuse of a child was reported 3/10 reported it was at the hands of the mother or female relative, 4/10 reported at the hands of the father or another male relative.

Nowhere on here does it say the girls were bullying him, that’s a reach.

@Gliderx

Again, girls having boundaries is not victimising anyone.

There's a difference between having boundaries and bullying. Taunting, mocking and deliberate exclusion are bullying.

Taunting, mocking and deliberate exclusion does not give the invitation to strangle somebody.

Nothing the OP's DDs could have done would have justified this child from attacking them.

Now, as I asked, how about you read back all your responses but put rape in place of strangulation.

But that isn't what this boy has done. So doing that would be a pointless exercise.

Taunting, mocking and deliberate exclusion does not give the invitation to strangle somebody.

Nor did I say that.

Nine year old boys are often a nightmare even without a chaotic homelife. When my ds was that age, he was very difficult and i know a lot of his friends mum were also tearing their hair out. These were "nice" families with no major issues. I know there were a few incidences of boys hitting each other... strangling is a different matter though and incredibly worrying and I also know the boys whilst they may have physically fought each other, they wouldn't dream of doing that to girls in their class. So I think this boys behaviour is very concerning.

@Gliderx

Now, as I asked, how about you read back all your responses but put rape in place of strangulation.

But that isn't what this boy has done. So doing that would be a pointless exercise.

It would be an effective one.

It was made a separate crime in uk law equal to rape and carrying an equal sentence. So it’s a much more accurate equivalency than the supposed ‘bully’ claim you keep throwing out.

Your posts are dripping in misogyny.

[quote Arethechildreninbedyet]@RedCarpetRebellion how have I 'used your experience to downplay the reality of that?'

You said it was very very rare and that does a disservice to anyone who has been abused by women.

It is less common certainly but in absolutely no way very very rare.

Home Office Statistics are all well and good but are only indicative of crimes that have been reported/prosecuted.

According to the ONS 1/3 victims of domestic abuse are men and an estimated 49% of men in abusive relationships will not report domestic abuse.

In cases where physical abuse of a child was reported 3/10 reported it was at the hands of the mother or female relative, 4/10 reported at the hands of the father or another male relative.[/quote]
‘But women abuse too’ is a very common way to down play the reality of male violence against women and girls.

Come over to FWR and post about women abusers and you’ll have a PHD of references and critical evaluation of references in no time. You’d be more than welcome.

There is a very valid reason why sex is segregated when women are more vulnerable, like changing rooms etc, and that’s because women don’t pose a threat to other women or girls and men do. The government didn’t go to all that expense to pass those laws without a wealth of evidence backing that up.

@RedCarpetRebellion. No they're not. I just have a different view from you on some (not all) aspects of what the OP has said. And you can't cope with that so you're descending to personal insults.

[quote Gliderx]@RedCarpetRebellion. No they're not. I just have a different view from you on some (not all) aspects of what the OP has said. And you can't cope with that so you're descending to personal insults.[/quote]
Nope I’m being factual. I’m very sure I’m not the only one who sees how misogynistic your equivalency of ‘bullying’ and this boys violence is.

But I've said (multiple times) that they're not equivalent, if you read my posts.

my kids were coming out of afterschool and the boy was still playing in the playground with one of his friends. He was like "na na na, you have to go to extra school" and my older daughter was like "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" and she waved the sweeties at him

Who is your older daughter? Not one of the twins?

@Clavinova

my kids were coming out of afterschool and the boy was still playing in the playground with one of his friends. He was like "na na na, you have to go to extra school" and my older daughter was like "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" and she waved the sweeties at him

Who is your older daughter? Not one of the twins?

Twins do have an elder and a younger my dad is the eldest out of him and his twin the only by ten minutes was a battle cry my nan heard often

@EatSleepRantRepeat

Some of the attitudes here are shocking. If your kids don't want to play with the boy they don't have to, full stop. It's always girls who are taught to "be kind" and bend over backwards for people, and it's just training them to put up with being uncomfortable around people they don't want to spend time with.

This.. 100%...

Let's just treat girls to put up with any crap with others they don't like...

The strangling?? Bloody worrying.

I think id also be reporting this to safeguarding with in the school. At the very least,this kid needs help before he seriously hurts someone

I've put YABU

A. The post was faaaaar too long
B. The girls should have apologized for excluding him from the game and I don't see why you said they were as bad as each other.
C. You've decided he's a violent abuser based on a Dad who is struggling with his son feeling excluded already in his family and then fighting for his son to be included with your girls, but coming up against a brick wall. I think the fact M's mum was on his side in the original incident is quite telling.
D. You sound judgmental and arrogant so I think there's probably even more n to the other side of the story than in most situations.

Let's just treat girls to put up with any crap with others they don't like...

No, let's teach children of any sex to be kind, considerate and inclusive. The concept is not difficult.

To answer a few questions: my older daughter is the older of the twins. I only have two kids. They are both girls.

The reason why my kids were not being picked up at school was because we are in Germany, where kids walk to and from school on their own from about age 7. Also, because of that, all the stuff they said to each other is translated - don't read too much into the exact wordings.

To the people who said I should escalate this to the police etc: I'm thinking about what you've said, and I'm thinking about how to keep my daughter safe. We don't have the sort of dedicated safeguarding process as there is in the UK, but I will speak to her teacher, who is a good sort, and see if there is anything we can do. I don't want to start picking her up because she'll be embarrassed but I will say to her to always walk with her sister and their wee after school colleague who lives on our road.

A stushie is indeed an altercation - it implies more drama than actual fighting, which is how I believe things were in the incident 6 months ago. I don't by any means think my kids are perfect by the way, but they're not generally badly behaved - in 4 years of school the worst either of them has had is a mark down for forgetting to bring a book, and when I've seen their teachers they've told me they are hardworking, the younger one a bit on the quiet side, but both good at getting on with the other kids.

In terms of the timings - G has hit both of them, more than once, at school and before they went down to M's house that day. Since then, until now, they have kept away from each other AFAIK. They were never great friends - I had him over for the odd playdate when he was younger (in other words, the dad wanted some unpaid childcare and I obliged him a couple of times) but they didn't really play together. Which reminds me - is it not totally normal on playdates with more than 2 kids, that somebody gets left out? I saw it all the time when my kids were younger, one of them would get sort of edged out or wouldn't want to play with the others and I'd always end up with one kid (usually one of mine, occasionally the invitee!) in the kitchen chatting to me while I did the ironing. I never marched the kid back in and insisted that the others include her, because did anyone ever have fun in that situation?

Violence is never okay.
He should never hit anyone.
Jeering and exclusion aren't okay either, all children aggravated each other.
Not excusing him but it seems like the girls mean too.

@MerryMarigold - we should also teach kids not to be violent even if people are not being inclusive and kind.

This is probably more important and the dad is doing his son a disservice if he minimises the behaviour and tries to find excuses. My sibling used to be like this - people used to bait him until he exploded. But it’s just something you have to learn not to react to as you get older - otherwise you get into serious trouble. That said, I’d also like my kids to be kind and avoid trouble/baiting.

To clarify: I did NOT say this little boy has ASD. FFS the people who don't read properly! Being accused of disablism too! Sheesht. What I did say was that MY DS has ASD and ADHD and did do something similar when he was younger than this child. We apologised profusely, took steps to allow him to further his understanding of appropriate behaviour and tried really hard to rise above parents and children who shunned him (particularly the children who had been goading and bullying him for many, many months).

All I was saying was that all behaviour is communication and someone needs to figure out what he's communicating.