To think this is how violent men get their start in life?

[Anycrispsleft]

I wanted to know if you think I'm being U in this scenario, with a boy from my daughters' class. I'll try and tell the whole story from start to finish, but for a bit of background - my 9yo twin (shut up Mumsnet, they really are twins ) are in school with a boy, G, and a girl, M. All 4 of them have known each other since nursery, and at nursery they got on OK as most kids do, but since then G's behaviour has gone downhill a bit and he's hit one of my kids a couple of times and is often in trouble at school. Ms mum has been an unofficial childminder for G most of his life: he lives with his dad, a lone parent until about 18 months ago when he got married, so he and M are often together.

The first stushie was about 6 months ago. M Skyped one of my kids one Sunday afternoon and invited them to go and play in her garden.

1. my kids turned up - G was there as well, being looked after by M's mum/on a playdate
2. M went and played with my kids in preference to G
3. G tried to interrupt their game by taking their stuff
4. The girls retaliated by hiding their stuff from him (and probably laughing at him and stuff, I'm not saying they were particularly kind)
5. He went home in a strop and said the three of them hadn't been nice to him
6. My two came home, also in a strop, said G had been disrupting their game and acting like an idiot - I asked them whether they'd called him any names or hit him or anything - no (and I am inclined to believe them, bc at the very least if one of them had been a fecker they would have come back up the road fighting about who caused the fight)
7. The dad phones me and tells me his boy is upset and I need to talk to my kids and tell them to apologise. I tell him they've already talked to me about it and I don't see any reason for them to apologise any more than he should, that it all sounds like like normal kid falling-out and if the kids don't want to play with each other I'm not going to force them.
8. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he also phones M's mum. M's mum takes her up to his house and makes M apologise.
9. The day after M skypes my daughter to say she's not allowed to play with her any more. I tell M she's always welcome at our house.

M's mother never got in touch with me, so I was left in this weird limbo. I wasn't there, G's dad wasn't there, M's mum never spoke to me about the incident, so nobody was actually accusing my kids of anything to me but they couldn't see their friend any more and they were supposed to apologise for something (but G's dad couldn't exactly say what)? I concluded that they're all fucking mental G's dad is maybe paying M to childmind G, and so she feels obliged to make sure he has a nice time and stays to the end of the playdate, and maybe didn't want my kids there at all, but didn't feel like she could say that? Anyway not my monkeys etc... I told the kids not to go down there, we had M over for a few playdates organised by the kids themselves, and all was reasonably quiet.
Then, a couple of weeks ago, my kids were coming out of afterschool and the boy was still playing in the playground with one of his friends. He was like "na na na, you have to go to extra school" and my older daughter was like "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" and she waved the sweeties at him and he and his friend chased her down the road, tried to get the sweets off her, then tried to strangle her, before my other daughter and their wee friend from afterschool pulled him off.
Given my opinion of the dad isn't great I said to them to just tell the school in the first instance. The teacher dealt with it pretty robustly, giving them the two of them pretty thoroughly into trouble and making them write an apology to my daughter. I thought that was an end to it - my daughter wasn't that bothered about it - and then on Thursday night I get 3 missed calls and 2 messages on my phone from the dad wanting to speak to me. I just deleted them, then he ran into my husband and chewed his ear off for about half an hour about how after this recent episode the boy had been complaining that he had to apologise and my daughter's had not had to apologise for that time 6 months ago, and the dad said he felt that it had been playing on the boy's mind, and that maybe it had even been responsible for the worsening of his behaviour over the past 6 months. He left his phone number, and asked us to think about it over the weekend. That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest, and not say the fact that his father had just got married and his new sister had been born, about a month before? That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence? I mean TBH there's no point me putting this in AIBU because there is no way on this earth I would make my daughter apologise to that wee guy. I'm amazed though. That anybody could think that's a normal way to raise your kids.

Some of the attitudes here are shocking. If your kids don't want to play with the boy they don't have to, full stop. It's always girls who are taught to "be kind" and bend over backwards for people, and it's just training them to put up with being uncomfortable around people they don't want to spend time with.

The childminders DD apologised to him probably because if she didn’t her mum would lose the mindee and the income she gets for him.

I wouldn’t assume the girls were in the wrong just because the childminder made her child apologise.

The childminder was the one in the wrong there, she wasn’t minding her mindee and leaving her dd to keep him amused when she had her own friends over for a play date and didn’t want to.

If your kids don't want to play with the boy they don't have to, full stop.

True. But if I was running a playdate where one child was being excluded, I would send the children doing the excluding home pretty quickly. And they wouldn't be invited again.

There's a difference between politely avoiding someone you don't like (which of course everyone is entitled to do) and deliberately goading and taunting them because they're the 'naughty' boy and you want to provoke a reaction.

@Gliderx

In the OP's shoes, though, while I would be telling my DC to stay away from him where possible, I wouldn't allow them to taunt him, be mean to him and deliberately exclude him when in a small group with him.

Sounds like OP’s dds were happily playing between themselves. The boy started the trouble by taking their stuff. Why aren’t they allowed to defend themselves?

That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest,

Of course, didn’t you know that females are always responsible for the bad behaviour of males?

@Gliderx

If your kids don't want to play with the boy they don't have to, full stop.

True. But if I was running a playdate where one child was being excluded, I would send the children doing the excluding home pretty quickly. And they wouldn't be invited again.

There's a difference between politely avoiding someone you don't like (which of course everyone is entitled to do) and deliberately goading and taunting them because they're the 'naughty' boy and you want to provoke a reaction.

The boy wasn’t on the play date he was a mindee of the host mother.

The child of the mindee hadn’t invited the boy for a play date as she had the OP’s DC.

Sounds like OP’s dds were happily playing between themselves. The boy started the trouble by taking their stuff. Why aren’t they allowed to defend themselves?

That was after they had deliberately excluded him, though. He and M were playing until the OP's DC arrived and he was then excluded.

No, OP’s dds were playing together without M. It’s not their fault M came to play with them, they didn’t deserve to have their stuff taken by G.

I don’t think that’s how it begins, no.

If G were a girl, being cared for by the childminder, and M and your daughters deliberately left her out of their games and ignored her/told her to go away, would G be justified in feeling upset and angry? It sounds like your daughters and M ganged up on G, no wonder the childminder stopped future playdates. She’s responsible for her mindees’ wellbeing and if she has other kids to play who spitefully leave G out, she could lose business.

The incident with the sweets is unpleasant, but your DD should have ignored the mean comment not taunted G by waving them at him. The strangling should have been dealt with harshly by the school, it sounds like it has been.

Just because G is male doesn’t mean he has no feelings or gets upset at being left out or ostracised. It sounds like he’s going through a hard time with a new step mum and a sibling on the way.

The boy went way too far… and that is typical of children who have had a hard time, they do not know the boundaries. 3 girls being a bit mean etc is not kind but quite normal behaviour.
I think you need to teach your children to stay well away from this boy to keep themselves safe. That is all you can do really. I would explain to them that this boy has emotional difficulties and so lashes out in a way that can be unpredictable and dangerous so they need to stay away and not interact at all.

@Bonheurdupasse

I agree with the original OP's observation - this is how violent men get their start in life.

The 'childminder' (if she is one?) was concerned enough about the OP's DDs' behaviour to ban her daughter from playing with them after the playdate.

@FateHasRedesignedMost

I don’t think that’s how it begins, no.

If G were a girl, being cared for by the childminder, and M and your daughters deliberately left her out of their games and ignored her/told her to go away, would G be justified in feeling upset and angry? It sounds like your daughters and M ganged up on G, no wonder the childminder stopped future playdates. She’s responsible for her mindees’ wellbeing and if she has other kids to play who spitefully leave G out, she could lose business.

The incident with the sweets is unpleasant, but your DD should have ignored the mean comment not taunted G by waving them at him. The strangling should have been dealt with harshly by the school, it sounds like it has been.

Just because G is male doesn’t mean he has no feelings or gets upset at being left out or ostracised. It sounds like he’s going through a hard time with a new step mum and a sibling on the way.

If G were a girl and she had hit Op’s dd on TWO previous occasions as well then they are perfectly within their rights to not play with her.

Funny how you and others are excusing male violence though,

@Gliderx

The 'childminder' (if she is one?) was concerned enough about the OP's DDs' behaviour to ban her daughter from playing with them after the playdate.

Or maybe she felt bullied by G’s dad into not allowing playdates in case he took his business away.

Funny how G has hit Op’s dd twice, and now strangled her, and yet it’s OP’s dds’ behaviour you’re concerned with, not the boy’s.

Jesus, this place sometimes.

@Bonheurdupasse

The first para of my post went missing. In it I was agreeing with your observation about the victim blaming we're seeing on this thread, and how the DD is being censured for the way she is dealing with this troublesome boy.

Some of the attempts to normalise violence on this thread are dispiriting but inevitable.

I was beaten up by a group of my male schoolmates when I was 9 - they fractured my skull and ribs among other injuries. The Head wouldn't intervene because it happened outside school property. My offence was that I'd stopped a couple of them beating up a much younger child earlier so they got a gang together.

When my mother visited some of the families (4 of them lived very close by - think 10-60 yards) some of the parents said, "No he didn't". Even when their boy said, "I hit her with a brick/half a housie but I never put the boot in" their parents continued saying, "No you didn't son. You never did."

None of those boys had any penalties.

Later, all of those boys ended up in approved school (as it then was). One was on trial for attempted manslaughter by the age of 17.

I wasn't surprised. I'd very much like to think that CAMHS and Social Services are so well resourced that such children get the interventions that they need but that's not my impression from so many heartbreaking threads on MN. Yes, it might be premature to label but without recognition and intervention I wonder if patterns of behaviour repeat themselves.

@Gliderx, and I bet you’d say if the twins were made to apologise that the strangling incident was entirely their own fault too as they were made to apologise!

The Childminder made her DD apologise as she clearly didn’t want to lose her income source. She’s still allowing her DD to go to the OP’s house for palydates.

The boys violence is the problem, his fathers (lack of) parenting is the problem, his father deflecting and blaming everyone else is the problem. No doubt when his son takes his anger out on the new baby it will be the new baby’s fault/stepmum’s fault.

"I don’t think that’s how it begins, no......
The incident with the sweets is unpleasant, but your DD should have ignored the mean comment not taunted G by waving them at him."

Or in other words, girls shouldn't talk back to boys even when they're being waylaid and taunted by them.

QED.

The boy went way too far… and that is typical of children who have had a hard time, they do not know the boundaries.

I agree with this. The OP needs to encourage her DDs to keep their distance and not engage with this boy since he obviously struggles with self-control and boundaries.

he ran into my husband and chewed his ear off for about half an hour about how after this recent episode the boy had been complaining that he had to apologise and my daughter's had not had to apologise for that time 6 months ago, and the dad said he felt that it had been playing on the boy's mind, and that maybe it had even been responsible for the worsening of his behaviour over the past 6 months. He left his phone number, and asked us to think about it over the weekend. That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest, and not say the fact that his father had just got married and his new sister had been born, about a month before? That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence?

This right here is the crux of it.
Your daughters and M were unkind, yes. Your daughters and M excluded him, yes. But that is typical childish behaviour. Retaliating by strangling is not ... and then DEFENDING it because of childish behaviour that happened on a playdate 6 months prior is not.

And this is exactly how men get violent starts: they do feel entitled and girls are told to 'be nice'. It needs to be loudly stamped out.

A few days ago a 12 year old girl in Liverpool was rude and answered back to some slightly older boys. So they stabbed her to death. I wonder what those boys had learnt about resolving childhood disputes with other kids?

@StormyTeacups

Splitting the two incidents apart completely.

1st incident, your kids were mean and should be taught that isn't acceptable.

2nd incident, boy was completely in the wrong.

Sums it up perfectly.

This is where childminders with similar aged kids have issues.
The kids who's house it is has to share with other children they don't get on with, their home isn't a safe space.
I've seen what this does with several families, the resentment that can build.
The girl has every right to have friends over to play with. While if the boy wasn't being minded he wouldn't have been there. It's harsh on the boy but actually who is at fault? The parent. She either says no to play dates while she is working or ensure they do things that include everyone.
I wouldn't be looking after a child who was violent towards my child in my house. She made the child apologise for an issue she created.

The boy strangled a girl- that's a massive issue. Huge.

The school dealt with it. Don't engage with the father at all. Speak to the school and let them know he is taking it further outside school.

9years is when the real flexing of personalities begins, lovely kids can start to be mean and spiteful. Hormones kick in. It's a good time to discuss all aspects or relationships with kids. Relational aggression, pushing boundaries, when to be kind and when not to. I'd want to know what the school are doing about this.

The boys were punished by school and we don't actually know if Gs dad punished his son too.
Doesn't sound like they got away with it really.

So the boy was being an a boy little kid which made the girls not want to play him and that’s justification for strangling her??? FFS!

No wonder men thinks it’s alright yo behave how they want towards women and women don’t challenge that. Seems if being taught from an early age!

I’d have told my son to stop being an annoying child to the girls and then they might have let him play with them but there’s consequences for shitty behaviour, in the case it was being left out.

The strangling, I would have gone batshit at my child and he’d be bloody grovelling too those girls and given strict instructions to stay away from them.

People need to stop minimising make violence, it’s start at a young age and grows if never dealt with.