To think this is how violent men get their start in life?

[Anycrispsleft]

I wanted to know if you think I'm being U in this scenario, with a boy from my daughters' class. I'll try and tell the whole story from start to finish, but for a bit of background - my 9yo twin (shut up Mumsnet, they really are twins ) are in school with a boy, G, and a girl, M. All 4 of them have known each other since nursery, and at nursery they got on OK as most kids do, but since then G's behaviour has gone downhill a bit and he's hit one of my kids a couple of times and is often in trouble at school. Ms mum has been an unofficial childminder for G most of his life: he lives with his dad, a lone parent until about 18 months ago when he got married, so he and M are often together.

The first stushie was about 6 months ago. M Skyped one of my kids one Sunday afternoon and invited them to go and play in her garden.

1. my kids turned up - G was there as well, being looked after by M's mum/on a playdate
2. M went and played with my kids in preference to G
3. G tried to interrupt their game by taking their stuff
4. The girls retaliated by hiding their stuff from him (and probably laughing at him and stuff, I'm not saying they were particularly kind)
5. He went home in a strop and said the three of them hadn't been nice to him
6. My two came home, also in a strop, said G had been disrupting their game and acting like an idiot - I asked them whether they'd called him any names or hit him or anything - no (and I am inclined to believe them, bc at the very least if one of them had been a fecker they would have come back up the road fighting about who caused the fight)
7. The dad phones me and tells me his boy is upset and I need to talk to my kids and tell them to apologise. I tell him they've already talked to me about it and I don't see any reason for them to apologise any more than he should, that it all sounds like like normal kid falling-out and if the kids don't want to play with each other I'm not going to force them.
8. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he also phones M's mum. M's mum takes her up to his house and makes M apologise.
9. The day after M skypes my daughter to say she's not allowed to play with her any more. I tell M she's always welcome at our house.

M's mother never got in touch with me, so I was left in this weird limbo. I wasn't there, G's dad wasn't there, M's mum never spoke to me about the incident, so nobody was actually accusing my kids of anything to me but they couldn't see their friend any more and they were supposed to apologise for something (but G's dad couldn't exactly say what)? I concluded that they're all fucking mental G's dad is maybe paying M to childmind G, and so she feels obliged to make sure he has a nice time and stays to the end of the playdate, and maybe didn't want my kids there at all, but didn't feel like she could say that? Anyway not my monkeys etc... I told the kids not to go down there, we had M over for a few playdates organised by the kids themselves, and all was reasonably quiet.
Then, a couple of weeks ago, my kids were coming out of afterschool and the boy was still playing in the playground with one of his friends. He was like "na na na, you have to go to extra school" and my older daughter was like "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" and she waved the sweeties at him and he and his friend chased her down the road, tried to get the sweets off her, then tried to strangle her, before my other daughter and their wee friend from afterschool pulled him off.
Given my opinion of the dad isn't great I said to them to just tell the school in the first instance. The teacher dealt with it pretty robustly, giving them the two of them pretty thoroughly into trouble and making them write an apology to my daughter. I thought that was an end to it - my daughter wasn't that bothered about it - and then on Thursday night I get 3 missed calls and 2 messages on my phone from the dad wanting to speak to me. I just deleted them, then he ran into my husband and chewed his ear off for about half an hour about how after this recent episode the boy had been complaining that he had to apologise and my daughter's had not had to apologise for that time 6 months ago, and the dad said he felt that it had been playing on the boy's mind, and that maybe it had even been responsible for the worsening of his behaviour over the past 6 months. He left his phone number, and asked us to think about it over the weekend. That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest, and not say the fact that his father had just got married and his new sister had been born, about a month before? That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence? I mean TBH there's no point me putting this in AIBU because there is no way on this earth I would make my daughter apologise to that wee guy. I'm amazed though. That anybody could think that's a normal way to raise your kids.

Wowzers, some of the responses on here are enlightening at how victim blaming is so prevalent in society. I wouldn't allow my children to deliberately exclude others and be mean, no, and that was unkind but I probably wouldn't have allowed them to go on a playdate with someone who had previously hit them. I don't think girls should have to play with people they don't want to just to be nice but I also don't think it's kind to deliberately exclude either.

However, the strangling is so wrong on so many levels - just because someone says something mean it doesn't mean that you can react with violence, and the dad should be ashamed of his dismissal of quite frankly dangerous behaviour. Yes, dismissal of violent behaviours in boys by parents/carers are indicative of abusive behaviour later in life, of course it is. I just hope he gets the help needed to regulate his emotions to stop this happening.

Poor M. Her mother is using her as a service human to look after this difficult, aggressive boy, presumably because she doesn’t want to lose the income stream or maybe because she’s the kind of woman who thinks females have a duty to “be kind” to troubled males (but obviously not vice versa).

In the first instance I doubt very much that it was a playdate that M wanted or had asked for. I’m presuming it was inflicted on her, as had been done countless times previously, and that at the age of 9 she is less and less interested in tolerating the presence of an aggressive boy in her own home, where she’s supposed to be safe, in her own downtime.

I’m guessing that’s why she asked OP’s DDs to come over, so she could spend some of her free time with other children she actually likes and gets on with as opposed to being expected to entertain this boy whether she gets anything out of it or not.

I feel sympathy for G insofar as the adults are letting him down badly - both his father and M’s mum should have cottoned on by now to the fact that while this arrangement might have worked when the children were both small, now they’re well into juniors it’s simply not fair on M, or, ultimately, G.

It’s wrong to make a 9 yo child spend her free time entertaining a child she doesn’t particularly get on with because it benefits you; it’s wrong to palm your 9 yo child off somewhere he’s not particularly welcome just because it’s convenient for you.

The fact this boy has got the message that girls not wanting to play with him (especially in the context of his previous behaviour) is on a par with him and another boy chasing and physically attacking a girl, strangling her FFS, is really worrying and I agree OP, this is how boys grow up into men who feel entitled to women’s time and attention and entitled to be violent when they don’t get what they want.

I hope your DH goes and chews G’s father off for a good half hour too about what a terrible lesson he’s teaching his son. And I hope M’s mum stops inflicting this boy on her DD.

You’re spot on, OP, this mindset is completely toxic: That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence? and while I’m glad to see the majority agree with you, it’s indicative of the wider problems in our society, the apologism for male violence, that a significant minority don’t.

@Rosebel

The boys were punished by school and we don't actually know if Gs dad punished his son too. Doesn't sound like they got away with it really.

That’s not the point. The point is the boy is making out that the girls not wanting to play with him is on a par with him and his friend violently physically assaulting a girl. And his father is backing him up and telling him yes, those things are on a par.

That’s the problem. The lesson this boy is learning from that.

Little girls shouldn't be compelled to play with little boys who hit them to save their feelings. If G had hit your daughter(s) in the past, which I think you're saying he had, then they did nothing wrong. And TBH I agree with you about this being how violent men get their start. It's very sad though, he's clearly an unhappy little boy. Hopefully he can come to realise and change his behaviour one day. That said, if he hadn't hit them in the past, I do think it's very unkind to exclude him on a playdate. Obviously that still wouldn't in any way excuse or explain the strangling like the dad seems to think! I wonder what his behaviour is like towards women.

@Rosebel

The boys were punished by school and we don't actually know if Gs dad punished his son too. Doesn't sound like they got away with it really.

The take home point from this experience is that the boy has exculpated himself by claiming an equivalence between his behaviour (including the strangling) and the earlier incident to justify his disproportionate action.

The boy's father is reinforcing this false equivalence for him as a sufficient justification.

This situation is very close to the story that I told from my own experience where all of the boys involved went on to become violent young men and then violent older men.

There is a total lack of adult involvement in this at any point. They are almost left to deal with it all themselves and understandably it is escalating!

You are right poor parenting and a lack of parental involvement does make for disenfranchised and potentially violent adults

Tried to strangle her...bloody hell.

So I got into a fair few fights as a kid growing up on a rough council estate, but never saw anyone strangling anyone. Where has this kid learned this? That is very disturbing.

Reminds me of the quote:

Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.

It wasn't a play date for M &G. He was 'work'. It doesn't sound like outside of 'work' M would ever ask for G to have a play date.this is very relevant.

@Gliderx

If your kids don't want to play with the boy they don't have to, full stop.

True. But if I was running a playdate where one child was being excluded, I would send the children doing the excluding home pretty quickly. And they wouldn't be invited again.

There's a difference between politely avoiding someone you don't like (which of course everyone is entitled to do) and deliberately goading and taunting them because they're the 'naughty' boy and you want to provoke a reaction.

From the sounds of it, G was there as a looked after child, not on a playdate. It doesn't entitle him to any attention from these girls if they don't want to give it. If G's parents are concerned he isn't making friends at his childminders it's up to them to move him to somewhere more suitable (and if he's being looked after for free, then tough luck).

The kid needs help, and quickly. Sounds like he's been through a lot and had his behaviour blamed on others and he isn't being taught how to control himself. If it isn't nipped in the bud now then it's going to be virtually impossible to do so as he enters his teen years and beyond.

Separately from that your kids sound pretty unkind at times and you need to come down on that.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus so sorry that happened to you. How do those parents live with themselves.

Sounds like the poor boy mostly has a shit dad problem.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Some of the attempts to normalise violence on this thread are dispiriting but inevitable.

I was beaten up by a group of my male schoolmates when I was 9 - they fractured my skull and ribs among other injuries. The Head wouldn't intervene because it happened outside school property. My offence was that I'd stopped a couple of them beating up a much younger child earlier so they got a gang together.

When my mother visited some of the families (4 of them lived very close by - think 10-60 yards) some of the parents said, "No he didn't". Even when their boy said, "I hit her with a brick/half a housie but I never put the boot in" their parents continued saying, "No you didn't son. You never did."

None of those boys had any penalties.

Later, all of those boys ended up in approved school (as it then was). One was on trial for attempted manslaughter by the age of 17.

I wasn't surprised. I'd very much like to think that CAMHS and Social Services are so well resourced that such children get the interventions that they need but that's not my impression from so many heartbreaking threads on MN. Yes, it might be premature to label but without recognition and intervention I wonder if patterns of behaviour repeat themselves.

I’m so sorry too, Hadrosauraus.

How terrifying that must have been - the terrible story of the 12 year old girl murdered in Liverpool must have a horrible extra resonance for you, on top of the huge distress I presume all or most of us feel.

An actual commitment to treat male VAWG as seriously as terrorism, rather than just a recommendation, can’t come soon enough.

There is currently a system in place whereby all incidents of racism in a school setting, primary as well as secondary, must by law be reported to the LA, to build up a picture of the scale of the issue.

We need the same system for all incidents of male violence against girls in schools.

2) M went and played with my kids in preference to G 3) G tried to interrupt their game by taking their stuff 4) The girls retaliated by hiding their stuff from him (and probably laughing at him and stuff, I'm not saying they were particularly kind)
...and stuff....you think that's ok? Horrible behaviour and attitude, yet you thought they did nothing wrong and that didn't justify apologising?

I think this boy has some issues, but your girls are certainly not a good model of good behaviour. What she told the boy after a harmless tease about going to after-school club was shameful.

Before pointing the finger on how this dad is bringing up his boy, you might to focus on your girls. I'd be ashamed if my kids behaved like this.

I wouldn’t be ashamed of my children if they quite rightly excluded a little shit from playing with them because he’s a violent little thug whose previous behaviour had already lead to him hitting them.

You can call someone a cunt to their face, you can tease someone, laugh at them, that might mean you’re not a very nice person, but it certainly doesn’t mean you deserve to be strangled.
But yeah, girls must always be kind and apologise.

The boy was in the wrong by being violent obviously but to be honest both your kids and especially your daughter sound pretty cruel themselves.

That’s about it, we can’t read the boys future from this and it would be wrong to do that.

Like a pp said, the 2 incidents should be separate. The 1st time the 3 girls were in the wrong for excluding him, you are ASSUMING that Ms mother is minding G but you don't actually know so as far as you are aware the 4 kids were on a playmate together and they were mean to the only boy.

The 2nd incident of course the 2 boys were completely in the wrong and the school have dealt with it as they should. Physical violence is never acceptable. Maybe also have a word with your daughter about showing off things to other kids that they may want to take. Obviously most kids wouldn't strangle them for it but not all kids are NT or coping emotionally or mentally.

Tell your kids to stay away from G, they obviously don't get along so distance is the best strategy. Also take some responsibility for your own kids shitty behaviour.

What she told the boy after a harmless tease about going to after-school club was shameful.

Wow.

With an attitude like that, it’s horrifying to think of you bringing up children of either sex.

Well done for your contribution to making the world a place where women and girls are blamed for male violence.

Despicable.

I wouldn’t be ashamed of my children if they quite rightly excluded a little shit from playing with them because he’s a violent little thug whose previous behaviour had already lead to him hitting them
Nothing says he was a little shit then. If OP had an issue with him, she should have asked if he'd be there and not go.

Excluding a child in during a play date, when he was already there, laughing at him and stuff as OP said, is bullying.

M made her daughter apologise because she recognised it was poor behaviour. OP failed to see it.

It escalated from there.

I wonder how you’d enjoy it, vivainsomnia, if you were forced to spend your Sunday afternoon with a male colleague of yours you knew to be capable of being aggressive and physically violent.

Yanbu

I will say though that at their age, the dynamic of three girls and one boy at a playdate is unlikely to be successful

@vivainsomnia
Really! He’s hit them before. His behaviour had escalated. Perhaps in hindsight the girls should have just phoned their mum and said can we come home. But they didn’t. They did what most 9 year olds would do, they excluded him.

Does this mean Because they didn’t apologise they deserved to be strangled???

Because the 2 scenarios are:
girls apologise for something they don’t want to apologise for and therefore don’t get strangled

Girls don’t apologise and get strangled

Both of those scenarios prove the fucking point about male entitlement and violence

@itsallgoingpearshaped

he ran into my husband and chewed his ear off for about half an hour about how after this recent episode the boy had been complaining that he had to apologise and my daughter's had not had to apologise for that time 6 months ago, and the dad said he felt that it had been playing on the boy's mind, and that maybe it had even been responsible for the worsening of his behaviour over the past 6 months. He left his phone number, and asked us to think about it over the weekend. That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest, and not say the fact that his father had just got married and his new sister had been born, about a month before? That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence?

This right here is the crux of it.
Your daughters and M were unkind, yes. Your daughters and M excluded him, yes. But that is typical childish behaviour. Retaliating by strangling is not ... and then DEFENDING it because of childish behaviour that happened on a playdate 6 months prior is not.

And this is exactly how men get violent starts: they do feel entitled and girls are told to 'be nice'. It needs to be loudly stamped out.

I would agree with this.

Somebody needs to tell his father to actually parent his son. It sounds like he's being minded while his stepmum and new sister are at home, if baby is only a month old. That's a great way to feel excluded from his family. Does dad have any 1 on 1 time with his son? Or is his attention solely on his new wife and child?

Yes, the girls may have been a bit mean that one time, but G already had a record of hitting them, and now it's escalating. I reckon he's feeling excluded from his family, and things could get worse if nothing is done.