To think my fiancé is being unrealistic about parenting?

[pinkdaffodils90]

So I’ve been with my fiancé for 5 years, engaged for 2 (postponed due to covid, fingers crossed for next summer) and for the last few years we have talked about moving out of Oxford so we can afford a bigger house and start a family. We’ve always agreed that we only wanted one and that we definitely weren’t ready yet, but as the years have gone on I still haven’t felt ready and have been more and more put off the idea. There’s a few reasons for this-

1. My fiancé has BPD which is largely under control, but does flare up under stress- the upheaval of moving house last year was the closest we’ve ever come to breaking up. Sleep deprivation is also a big trigger for this.

1. We both really enjoy our own space and spending time on separate hobbies. Our perfect weekend (and what we do most Saturdays) is brunch together, then separate afternoons doing our own thing before coming back together for a film and glass of wine in the evening. I know this wouldn’t be possible if we had a child, we’d both have to give up a lot of our independence, and I really don’t want to.

1. We both get stressed when our ‘to-do’ list gets too long in our free time. We both have high pressure jobs with long hours, so our evenings and weekends are precious. I can’t imagine having to constantly worry about childcare, the school run, spending weekends ferrying them back and forth to clubs etc. He just keeps saying ‘we’d manage, people do’ but I don’t think he’s really considering how much of a change it would be.

I don’t seem to be able to get through to him that I have genuine concerns about how we’d manage and how happy it would make us, he just thinks I’m doubting my abilities. I’m sure I’d be a good mum if I wanted to be one, but I don’t. He keeps talking about wanting to take them camping and on bike rides and give his parents a grandchild to spoil, and I think he’s hyper focused on those idealised moments and not the actual reality.

We have a wonderful relationship and I absolutely adore him, I can’t imagine my life without him, but this is really starting to cause a problem. I don’t want to let him down, but I really don’t think he’s got a clear head about this. I wonder if it’s his biological clock? He’s 42 and I’m 31.

I suppose I’m mostly just venting, but any advice would be very welcome.

I really do love him and want him to be happy.

But how you can both be together and both be happy, if he wants a baby and you don't?

He's not going to stop wanting it. And you're not going to be happy having a child you don't really want and even carrying an extra parenting load for him so that he doesn't fall apart.

I don’t think he means to be disrespectful though.

It's not about disrespect. You've both been a bit in denial because this is such a very hard thing to face. You both want to stay together so much but you both want different things. You are both still hoping the other will change their mind. And now you at least are starting to confront the reality that you don't want what he wants, though he may still not want to face up to it.

If you're sure (and you seem to be!) then don't trail any false hope or mixed messages at him. Don't argue about reasons why, or about ways and means . You just feel differently about it. Be clear that you don't want a child with him and wont have a child with him, and don't agree to any steps to facilitate it like (like moving to a more child-friendly location)

TBH perhaps in 10 years you will change your mind. You don't know that your hormones won't go on the rampage and at that time you can re-evaluate.

This doesn't change the fact that right now you do not want children either now or in the future and before you get married it needs to be talked about and he needs to be clear that being with you = no children ever.

Even if you did change your mind it may not happen or you may decide that it would mean you having to carry so much of the load that you still don't go ahead.

It's a very tough situation to be in but you are being realistic. Perhaps he just wants his dreams of being "normal" and "capable" and doesn't want to accept the reality that for him to remain well and happy it means avoiding major stressors like having children. Perhaps suggest some couples or individual therapy for him to accept you don't want children with him and are happy the way things are so he can decide what he wants.

Me and my DH are very similar. We both like our space and appreciate our free time. We have found having a child very, very difficult and mentally draining. We love our daughter but it's made both of us miserable beyond description constantly being harassed by a small human. I just feel like a slave most days. There are nice moments but it's 95% shit.

But that aside, it does sound like it's something he really wants. Maybe you two are just not compatible?

I've just read your updates. Based on what you've said I do think your DP would find it very difficult having a child and that everyone would end up suffering but unfortunately you can't force him to see this. All you can do is continue to be honest and repeat that you do not want children when the subject arises. The only thing I'd worry about is that he may end up resenting you. Nut yeah I don't think there's much else you can do.

People used to say the same to me op -you'll change your mind or its different when its your own

i never did change my mind and i dont regret it

'You don't know that your hormones won't go on the rampage and at that time you can re-evaluate.'

Well that might happen and it might not. I don't know how much was hormones and how much was other factors, but I've certainly felt a burning urge to have a baby many times. It was very rough, but I was able to resist because I knew that the reality of parenthood was not for me. OP may be the same

'We love our daughter but it's made both of us miserable beyond description constantly being harassed by a small human. I just feel like a slave most days. There are nice moments but it's 95% shit.'

Thank you for sharing that. I can well imagine how you feel. I'm sorry that things are so tough

I have to say when your hormones do go on the rampage I absolutely recommend your ignore them and go back to logical well through through decisions!!

Being a parent is really challenging and far too many of us go ahead and ignore the harsh reality.

OP,

I don't get those that say "you'll change your mind".

Those that have said that to me, never did.

The bottom line is, with a man like your partner with so many issues and needs and non negotiables, like needing so much space and quiet, you would have to be prepared to parent alone and that HIS demands would inevitably come ahead of any child.

Hugely unfair on the child.
Hugely unfair on you.

Why would you even dream of it when you are not keen?

Also, what if your child had similar issues to him?

This would be very challenging for you.

His wanting a child is all about him.

I really think you should consider moving on.

You deserve more than living your life to accommodate his endless needs, which now include trying out having a child.

You will literally be left holding the baby.

If you're sure (and you seem to be!) then don't trail any false hope or mixed messages at him. Don't argue about reasons why, or about ways and means . You just feel differently about it. Be clear that you don't want a child with him and wont have a child with him, and don't agree to any steps to facilitate it like (like moving to a more child-friendly location)

I completely agree with this. I also think it's a bit cruel to say it's about his mental health issues if actually, as seems to be the case, you just don't want a child. It implies that if he could change/was healthier in the first place he'd have been able to have both you and the baby he wants. That idea is likely to be pretty painful for him, and it doesn't even seem to be true.

It sounds like your DP would struggle. But I think you need to be sure in yourself that if you hadn't met him you would still not want a child, and also to weigh up the fact that the kids are only totally reliant on you for a short time, then less so, then moved out. You would get your life back just the two of you eventually. But you need to decide if the years in the middle would be worth having adult children one day. We have a few kids but when I see my friends with only one, the phases when they are very impulsive and totally relient on you (baby/toddler and to an extent teen) are actually not that long.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

he just thinks I’m doubting my abilities.

No, you are doubting his abilities. Sure, you must be wondering whether you can fill the gaps that he is likely to leave, but you need to confront the possibility that he's not a brilliant bet as a father. How will he cope with sleep deprivation? What if his BPD flares up again - will you have look after everyone? How will he support you?

One big question you need to ask yourself is, do you really not want children at all? Or do you want children but only with a stronger, more reliable father?

This is something you could realistically explore together in marriage counselling. I would do that before starting a family.

Absolutely agree with this.

I think he hasn't a clue, many people don't obviously but I suspect you see that the bulk of childrearing and most of the stress and mental load will be yours, especially if he becomes ill.

That is not a good environment to bring a child into and certainly won't be good for the mental health of either of you.

@RandomMess

I have to say when your hormones do go on the rampage I absolutely recommend your ignore them and go back to logical well through through decisions!!

Being a parent is really challenging and far too many of us go ahead and ignore the harsh reality.

I agree with this. Plus, I think no matter how many kids you have most women still get broody because it's a natural and irrational biological urge. I fucking hate being a parent but sometimes I still get broody.

'I have to say when your hormones do go on the rampage I absolutely recommend your ignore them and go back to logical well through through decisions'

Hard agree

I have 4DC including 3 in just over 3 years. Still good broody like crazy - it's insanity!

If I could have more now I would (they are all teens now) but the thought of having teens again in 13 years time does put me off as the emotional work of older DC makes the early years pale into existence for me.

I would love to be "Aunty" to young children - perfect solution to me missing little ones.

DH don't have the best mental health and I really wish I had understood better what I could have done before having DC to be in a better place for their sake. It's heartbreaking to see your DC repeat the same challenges - anxiety, low self esteem and prone to depression.

DH was always very hands on sharing the load abs it's a double edged sword if he hadn't have been there would not be 4DC!

I absolutely would not have DC with a partner that has the needs you have described here. The resentment of being a single parent within a marriage/partnership would kill my love for the other person.

If OP does change her mind about wanting DC, it seems probable that her thoughts and feelings about how her DH might parent - and be a partner to her after DC - will still be valid.

Her judgment seems to be that he is a ‘poor bet’ to be a good parent and partner after DC, based on what OP knows about him to date.

I do understand the comments that my not wanting children regardless make my concerns about his health irrelevant, and I am absolutely not trying to be cruel to or about him. We have a very loving and close relationship. I think it’s relevant to me because I’m frustrated that he seems unable to face up to how challenging a child would make his life and acknowledge that we have both made changes/sacrifices in our life already to accommodate him (which I’ve been happy to do) and becoming parents would upend all of that. I am frustrated and upset at the thought that I could lose the man I want to spend my life with because he wants something that I don’t understand how he can want- not because wanting children is wrong, but because it would bring all the things into his life- noise, disruption, stress etc, that we (and especially me) work so hard to keep out.

I get how you feel, I look at some people and think "how can you want kids - you have a stressful job, MH issues, not a lot of money, you already have a lovely quiet life" - but wanting children isn't a rational logical thing. Some people just want them. You don't have to understand why or agree, but you have to accept it. You can't convince someone that they don't really want something because you think it's not right for them.

But you don't have to join them in it, especially when you will be the one taking on most of the stress.

He thinks YOU doubt your abilities?
Is he having a laugh.

Of course you doubt HIS.

He is living in a little bubble of delusion created and facilitated by you.

Noise, disruption, stress, by words of parenting on any given day, which you try to spare him.

I wouldn't dream of inflicting him on a child and I think the amount of mothering you are doing is clearly excessive, which is proved by his delusion that you doubt your abilities 🙄.

I really think you should move on but if you insist on staying with him, are there a couple of fractious toddlers you could borrow for 48 hours?

They would surely cure him.

But just because it's weird and irrational doesn't mean that he can't want it.

For pretty much everyone having children is an irrational decision.

You can't make him NOT want to have children.

I understand why you are trying to change his mind but ultimately that is fruitless.

He wants children.

He now needs to decide whether he wants children more than he wants you.

I am frustrated and upset at the thought that I could lose the man I want to spend my life with because he wants something that I don’t understand how he can want- not because wanting children is wrong, but because it would bring all the things into his life- noise, disruption, stress etc,

It must be very upsetting to realise that your relationship might not work out even though you love each other and want to be with each other But sometimes love is not enough.

It is perfectly possible to want something that brings disruption and stress, even something that risks destroying your life, even if you know about the risk. Even in the best of circumstances having a child is always a risk. But wanting a child is kind of like being gay - you don't make a rational decision, I'll be gay. You just intensely fancy people of your own sex. Even though in some countries it can get you slung in prison or get your head cut off people still want it - many people might be too scared to do anything about it but it is still what they really want and if they do try to have sex with the someone of the opposite sex instead that isn't ever going to make them happy. And in countries where gay sex is very illegal some people take huge risks, they go into denial about just how risky it is, they think they'll get away with it, because they want it so much.

He really wants a baby even if having a baby could be stressful for him or could make him ill. And by the sound of things you really don't, even when other people are telling you that you will want a baby or you should. It's not something you can reason out of him, or that he can reason out of you.

that we (and especially me) work so hard to keep out.

Well, if you have done most of the work for him to keep stress out of his life for these last few years, and you have succeeded, why wouldn't hebelieve you'll carry on doing it and that you'll still succeed?

@Dishwashersaurous

But just because it's weird and irrational doesn't mean that he can't want it.

For pretty much everyone having children is an irrational decision.

You can't make him NOT want to have children.

I understand why you are trying to change his mind but ultimately that is fruitless.

He wants children.

He now needs to decide whether he wants children more than he wants you.

I completely agree with this. I'm confused from some of the comments on this thread who is allowed to want children if you shouldn't want them if you have any existing issues or instability in your life, but you also shouldn't want them if your pre-children life is nice?

I completely understand why you want him to independently decide he doesn't want children, OP; it would be much better for you if he did. Just like it would be much better for him if you did want children. But neither of you can or should try and argue the other into submission on this.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

OP I really believe you trying to bring him around to your way of thinking is a bad move. It's like him trying daily to talk you into having a baby

He wants what he wants.
You want what you want.

You are being unfair trying to get him to "see the realities" - why do this?! He clearly wants bloody kids!

I agree with this. I think you're both going the other will change their mind. But that's not realistic. Even if he says he'll stay with you without kids, how do you know he won't resent you a few years down the line? I really think incompatibility in this issue is a death knell for the relationship. I'd break it off.

hoping

@Scratchybaby

Oh my god, three years ago I was YOU. I didn't really want children, every time my partner brought it up I'd say "yes, but we have such a good life - we can have holidays, relax, sleep in... look at how stressed and tired X is all the time" and he'd just brush it off with the same dismissal. I was afraid of how much work it would be, and he seemed to think it would be a breeze, and everything would sort itself out.

The reason he thinks that, to be blunt, is because he's a man. Men have had a woman racing around in the background doing all the work children create, while they stand around with a beer gabbing about everything they know about parenting with the other dads, for generations. Usually in front of the football.

So I caved, thinking he kept bringing up children because he was generally keen on parenting and fastforward to now: I do ALL of the work. I still have my job, but ALL my annual leave is gobbled up by the days my son is off sick from nursery, has appointments, etc etc to infinity while he uses his days for rest and entertainment. My partner's answer to everything is "just get my mom to do it", i.e. where's the next available woman I can offload this onto? I am the one who doesn't get a shower every day, has stayed working from home, had to chip away at my own financial independence by reducing my hours, carry the entirety of the mental load involved in my son's health wellbeing and education. On and on for infinity.

You have the realistic, adult expectations of parenthood here, not him. And I would bet money that you would be the one carrying the vast majority of those responsibilities if you became parents because he doesn't even recognise their existence. You are right here.

BUT, despite this existential howling, and my current lack of sleep and hygiene, I DO love my son beyond words. When I look at him I actually feel IN LOVE with him. I have never found another human so physically beautiful, so charming, sweet and fascinating and worth every ounce of effort I can give him. So as much as I resent being a parent in the abstract, I do have a person who makes everything in life more important. and has probably led me kicking and screaming down a path of living a fuller life than the more self-centred one I led before.

It's really swings and roundabouts! Having a child is simultaneously the best and worst thing you will ever do in life. If you are the mom, it won't be just one of those things.

But how do you now feel about your husband?