To think my fiancé is being unrealistic about parenting?

[pinkdaffodils90]

So I’ve been with my fiancé for 5 years, engaged for 2 (postponed due to covid, fingers crossed for next summer) and for the last few years we have talked about moving out of Oxford so we can afford a bigger house and start a family. We’ve always agreed that we only wanted one and that we definitely weren’t ready yet, but as the years have gone on I still haven’t felt ready and have been more and more put off the idea. There’s a few reasons for this-

1. My fiancé has BPD which is largely under control, but does flare up under stress- the upheaval of moving house last year was the closest we’ve ever come to breaking up. Sleep deprivation is also a big trigger for this.

1. We both really enjoy our own space and spending time on separate hobbies. Our perfect weekend (and what we do most Saturdays) is brunch together, then separate afternoons doing our own thing before coming back together for a film and glass of wine in the evening. I know this wouldn’t be possible if we had a child, we’d both have to give up a lot of our independence, and I really don’t want to.

1. We both get stressed when our ‘to-do’ list gets too long in our free time. We both have high pressure jobs with long hours, so our evenings and weekends are precious. I can’t imagine having to constantly worry about childcare, the school run, spending weekends ferrying them back and forth to clubs etc. He just keeps saying ‘we’d manage, people do’ but I don’t think he’s really considering how much of a change it would be.

I don’t seem to be able to get through to him that I have genuine concerns about how we’d manage and how happy it would make us, he just thinks I’m doubting my abilities. I’m sure I’d be a good mum if I wanted to be one, but I don’t. He keeps talking about wanting to take them camping and on bike rides and give his parents a grandchild to spoil, and I think he’s hyper focused on those idealised moments and not the actual reality.

We have a wonderful relationship and I absolutely adore him, I can’t imagine my life without him, but this is really starting to cause a problem. I don’t want to let him down, but I really don’t think he’s got a clear head about this. I wonder if it’s his biological clock? He’s 42 and I’m 31.

I suppose I’m mostly just venting, but any advice would be very welcome.

Nobody is emotionally blackmailing her. OP is rightly very keen to think through every angle and says herself she was open to the idea when they got together.

In your first post OP, you say he thinks your doubting your own abilities and you say you would a 'good Mum' if you wanted to be one but you don't. If you have said that to him at any point no wonder he thinks you will change your mind as that's a bold, confident statement about something you haven't experienced yet. It also doesn't make any sense as you can't be a 'good Mum' if you don't want to be a Mum. Surely, that is the only way to explain it to him. If it is about getting through to him you have to explain that you can't muddle through with emotional availability for the child and that it is not just the physical care. Equally, this is having a 'child' not just a baby, the emotional care for a child is the biggest demand I would argue, certainly in the teenage years. If you're not available to them as you didn't want that child to begin with, it has the potential to be very problematic. Surely, if you explain it holistically he will 'get it'.

@Moonbabysmum

I do get it. Probably more then you'd realise tbh.

I didn't want children. My then boyfriend (now husband) did. He decided he would rather stay with me and have no children. I decided that I couldn't ask him to give up his dreams of fatherhood. We both were trying to persuade eachother, not for what we wanted, but what the other person wanted, because their happiness felt most important. We certainly didn't want to break up over it.

As it was, I moved from being anti kids to ambivalent, and took the biggest risk of my life, and got pregnant. It worked out for me, but I wouldn't recommend it, as it was risky!!

As soon as the baby was born my maternal instinct switched on, and I then had a huge urge for a second.

So I do understand your heartache, and I understand both the urge to have a child, and the bewilderment that anyone could want something so badly when they are ill suited to it. But trust me, as someone who had experienced both having, and not having that biological drive, it's take powerful. Much more so than I'd assumed.

It's a huge thing for either of you to compromise on, and I do feel for you, as it's not going to be easy. Don't make compromises you aren't happy to make, but don't give any false hope either.

It would be very sad if this broke you up, but perhaps less sad than either of you being pushed into a future that you don't want, with all the resentment that would bring.

Thank you, I appreciate that. I’m glad it worked out well for you :)

I am frustrated and upset at the thought that I could lose the man I want to spend my life with because he wants something that I don’t understand how he can want- not because wanting children is wrong, but because it would bring all the things into his life- noise, disruption, stress etc

Stbxh could have said the same about me. Having children has cost me a lot in terms of physical and mental pain. I knew the risks and as hard as it has been, especially because stbxh turned out to be an emotionally abusive jerk, I would do it all again. I know other women with chronic health conditions who have, like me, had children, in the knowledge that it will almost certainly make them sicker and carry a high personal cost for them. For those I know well as high as it was, the cost of having children was much lower than the cost of not having them.

Your DP might have no idea what having children is really like or he may have weighed this up and decided that for him personally the risk is worth taking. You've decided not having children is the right decision for you, but if he wants children in the same way I do then no amount of logic will change that. You absolutely shouldn't have a child you don't want, but he has the right to decide for himself. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes love, no matter how encompassing and amazing, just isn't enough.

@KeflavikAirport

A kind, attractive 42 yr old who pulls his weight around the house and actively wants kids. If you split, chances are someone else will snap him up in a second. How will you feel OP if in 18 months he is having a child with someone else?

I’ll be devastated if we split up over this, completely. But I can’t have a baby I don’t want to keep a relationship, and I can’t see family life with him making me happy, or at least definitely not as happy as I was with our childfree life. The balance we have now works well, it would be so entirely different with a child.

'But I can’t have a baby I don’t want to keep a relationship, and I can’t see family life with him making me happy'

That's what you have to hold on to OP. It's bloody tough, and really shit, but you absolutely have to put your happiness first. Really hope that things work out for you.

"I’ll be devastated if we split up over this, completely. But I can’t have a baby I don’t want to keep a relationship, and I can’t see family life with him making me happy, or at least definitely not as happy as I was with our childfree life. The balance we have now works well, it would be so entirely different with a child."

I really feel for you, this is a very tough situation to be in. No one should ever have a baby they don't want. You've thought this through thoroughly, you know what's right for you, whatever the outcome, hold on to that, do what's right for you.

I think you should speak to a professional I appreciate he is ill and maybe not deliberately doing this but he sounds really controlling and manipulative

@Blanca87

Jesus Christ, SHE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN. I wish posters would stop trying emotionally blackmail her into thinking she does. I think you are absolutely right in your decision and your letter is spot on. Girls are raised to believe our biological destiny is to have kids. Boys are not. We need to stop this discourse, it puts pressure on women who don’t want or can’t have kids.

It seems like she's trying to emotionally blackmail him. She keeps saying she just wants him to think about what having children will mean for him, but I suspect what she really wants is for him to realize he wouldn't be a good father and give up wanting children because that's what suits her. There's no reason for him to think about or acknowledge any of that; he wants kids, she doesn't. The end.

If you and he do have a child, and down the line he really can't cope, who ends up with 90% of the childcare if you split up?
It won't be him...

I just want to say that you have NO IDEA how badly I needed to read this thread today OP.

I recently turned 30 and was always on the fence about having children, and always hoped I'd change my mind. I've been with my boyfriend 8 years, engaged for 2. He is desperate to be a father, and I am absolutely terrified.

I was always a really unhappy child for one reason or another, and there is also genetic disabilities on both sides. My big fear at the minute is that our children will be severely disabled. And it's all very well people saying "you will love them no matter what!" I know I will love them - but it doesn't change the fact that life will be very, very hard with them.

My boyfriend doesn't want to talk about it - he just says "there's no point thinking about that when it might not happen". I'd just rather be prepared than not. And I'm not sure I'm cut out for the job.

@ImperfectTents

I think you should speak to a professional I appreciate he is ill and maybe not deliberately doing this but he sounds really controlling and manipulative

I can see how I may have made it sound like that, but he’s really not. He’s a good person. He can’t help having a medical condition, he takes medication and he had therapy for years. He frequently spoils me rotten, is super affectionate and incredibly hard on himself if he thinks he has upset me. I’ve seen him hurt himself but I’ve never been afraid he’d hurt me. I make compromises like giving him lots of space, going out to meet friends rather than bringing them home 90% of the time, choosing my moment carefully if something difficult needs to be discussed. It takes a bit of thought and care, but it works fine with just the two of us. It’s just introducing a dependent into it all that fills me with dread!

@amijustparanoidorjuststoned

I just want to say that you have NO IDEA how badly I needed to read this thread today OP.

I recently turned 30 and was always on the fence about having children, and always hoped I'd change my mind. I've been with my boyfriend 8 years, engaged for 2. He is desperate to be a father, and I am absolutely terrified.

I was always a really unhappy child for one reason or another, and there is also genetic disabilities on both sides. My big fear at the minute is that our children will be severely disabled. And it's all very well people saying "you will love them no matter what!" I know I will love them - but it doesn't change the fact that life will be very, very hard with them.

My boyfriend doesn't want to talk about it - he just says "there's no point thinking about that when it might not happen". I'd just rather be prepared than not. And I'm not sure I'm cut out for the job.

Big hugs to you, I know exactly how you feel. I hope some of the advice I’ve had on here helps you too xx

Sorry, but if you are trying to get her to imagine some hypothetical emotive scenario to convince her to have a child, in my opinion that is emotionally blackmailing.
I also don’t think she is emotionally blackmailing him at all, she is trying to gently outline that his ideas of raising children are unrealistic. Moreover she is also acutely aware everything would fall on her to accommodate his needs. She does not want to do that, which is fair enough.

Children are very hard work and full on! I would say clearly that atm you do not want a baby, that you may never want one .you need to be clear about this .he is right that many people "manage " but equally many Don't. Lots of people cannot cope and get divorced. As a society we are very focused on a sort of pressure to have a family. All adverts ,family pressure, peer pressure weigh in too. See what he says.men still have an easy time of fatherhood .no pregnancy sickness to deal with let alone giving birth. Often women still do a lot of the grunt work even when they have jobs of their own as well

No-one is trying to convince OP to have a child [eyeroll]

I'm not sure if I'm reading this wrong but I get the sense OP that you are a bit annoyed that your partner doesn't seem to be aware of all of the ways you help him mange his BPD. That's not a criticism I would feel the same. I think you probably need to spell out to him how you feel, including why his BPD would make having a child difficult. You can also stress that isn't the only reason you don't want a child but I suspect resentment will set in if you are less than clear.

@bigvig

I'm not sure if I'm reading this wrong but I get the sense OP that you are a bit annoyed that your partner doesn't seem to be aware of all of the ways you help him mange his BPD. That's not a criticism I would feel the same. I think you probably need to spell out to him how you feel, including why his BPD would make having a child difficult. You can also stress that isn't the only reason you don't want a child but I suspect resentment will set in if you are less than clear.

I appreciate your thoughts, but I don’t think I do resent him. He acknowledges the changes I’ve made for him and always says he’s lucky to have me. The only thing I’m upset with him about is his apparent refusal to listen when I say I don’t want children. He’s not particularly trying to change my mind about it, he just seems to think I’m having a wobble of confidence and need an ego boost about what a good mum he thinks I’d be, rather than accepting I just don’t want to do it. Other than that, he’s very good to me.

He’s not particularly trying to change my mind about it,

Yes he is ...

he just seems to think I’m having a wobble of confidence and need an ego boost about what a good mum he thinks I’d be, rather than accepting I just don’t want to do it.

... and this is how he's doing it. He is not even acknowledging that your mind needs to be changed. He's decided that you don't really mean what you say, you just need a bit of flattery about being a good mum and then you will want the same as he wants. How convenient for him! Much as you think he doesn't really mean what he says about wanting a child despite all, he just needs a reality check and then he will want the same as you want - which would be convenient for you.

The more you say the clearer it seems that you two are not on the same page about your relationship and where it's heading in future, not at all.

@pinkdaffodils90

I don’t know, I’m still not convinced that having a strong biological urge makes it okay to do something without being willing to at least think it through somewhat first. We don’t get to be selfish and use our biology as an excuse. You’re right I don’t have that urge so don’t understand it, I’m sure it is difficult, but that doesn’t change my position on it.

I am absolutely not trying to persuade him that he’s not capable by the way- I’ve been very blunt and open here, but far less so with him. He knows that I don’t want a baby, and I’ve encouraged him to think about the noise, stress etc,, but I have never suggested to him that he couldn’t do it. I just want him to actually talk about it! Not just say ‘we’ll manage, people do.’

I think he’s a wonderful man. He is kind and caring and incredibly smart, before this we wanted all the same things out of life, we have lots in common, we laugh all the time. He always tells me how much he appreciates me, and he’s not lazy at all- when he’s well (and it’s not his fault when he isn’t) he’s very hands on with everything around the house. I am utterly besotted with him.

But, it took us over two years of living together before I could have people over for dinner without him panicking at the idea, and he was incredibly tense throughout and spent the whole next day pretty much isolating. I loved him for doing that for me but it wasn’t really worth seeing him so unhappy. A baby is a million times more stressful than that!

I am mostly just venting here now. I’m not cruel, I’m not saying all of these things to him. I’ve written a short letter to make my position on having a baby very clear, and said if he wants a family he will need to find someone else. I just need to find the right moment to share it with him.

OP I did have that urge, I always thought I would have children but in my case I’m the one who has bipolar disorder and while I don’t judge other people with it who choose to be parents, I couldn’t risk it. And I agree with you, we can’t use biology as an excuse. It might be wonderful for me to have had a child but being around and unstable and frequently severely depressed mother would be detrimental. So my first decision as a parent putting my child first was to not have a child. I know I could only have managed it with a very supportive and understanding partner who would take the primary carer role, and lots of extra support. And that never eventuated. That’s a grief I have to live with but better me than a child.

Parenthood includes loads of sleep deprivation. Bipolar disorder and sleep deprivation is a very dangerous combination. You’d have to take on so much in order to protect his sleep because that’s vital to his stability. If you were desperate for a baby and could go into it knowing that, things could be managed. But when you’re not keen? Don’t do that to yourself or a child.

If he really wants a baby he’ll find someone who is willing to take on all the hard work (that biological urge is strong!). I’m sorry for you in this situation - it must be very hard knowing you might have to let him go, I really feel for you , you sound very loving and thoughtful and it sounds like you are good together. But you can’t do this for him.

I think you are being v sensible. My partner had a lot of issues, drinking, depression etc which he was (just about) keeping under control but having kids was like a bomb going off . And yes, I ended up doing the bulk of the managing and minding of everyone. I agree with the poster who says your partner may not be aware of how much you are smoothing his path at the moment. Might it be an idea to let ‘real life’ in a bit more, bring your friends around, make noise etc and see how he deals with it?

I’m really wobbly today so your kindness made me cry, thank you for the lovely words and support. I think you’re very brave and kind to have made that decision. I hope you have lots of love and fulfilment in your life.

Sorry, quote went wrong, above is to @tcjotm

Thank you also @ArsenalFan2, that sounds really hard and I hope you’ve got support behind you xx

A friend of mine has a husband with BPD.
When his medication works he is the loveliest, best hands on dad you could hope for.
However, once in a while the medication stops working and he gradually slides into manic phases- he ended up putting his kids' life at risk and she had to move out 3 times over the years.
She loves him dearly but she once confided that if she had known what her family life would be like, the constant worry and looking for warning signs, having to hide keys/drinks, inform schools etc, she would have left him.

And this is coming from someone who wanted kids when she was still at uni! She always saw herself as a young mum with a big family.

@LunaAndHerMoonDragons

I am frustrated and upset at the thought that I could lose the man I want to spend my life with because he wants something that I don’t understand how he can want- not because wanting children is wrong, but because it would bring all the things into his life- noise, disruption, stress etc

Stbxh could have said the same about me. Having children has cost me a lot in terms of physical and mental pain. I knew the risks and as hard as it has been, especially because stbxh turned out to be an emotionally abusive jerk, I would do it all again. I know other women with chronic health conditions who have, like me, had children, in the knowledge that it will almost certainly make them sicker and carry a high personal cost for them. For those I know well as high as it was, the cost of having children was much lower than the cost of not having them.

Your DP might have no idea what having children is really like or he may have weighed this up and decided that for him personally the risk is worth taking. You've decided not having children is the right decision for you, but if he wants children in the same way I do then no amount of logic will change that. You absolutely shouldn't have a child you don't want, but he has the right to decide for himself. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes love, no matter how encompassing and amazing, just isn't enough.

The issue is not the cost of having children though but the willingness to take responsibility! Our society still sees women as the primary carer. Even a lot of healthy men see children as women’s work, want to do the fun part and dump the shitwork onto their wives. You however parented your children - I presume that your STBXH was abusive meaning you did the majority of your work despite your chronic illness and he was useless? However will OP’s DP fight his condition to care for his kids or will he break down and leave it to the OP? So he’s not ‘deciding for himself’ if once baby comes he’s going to beg off using his MH as an excuse leaving OP (literally) holding the baby. The OP has already experienced his behaviour under stress with this with the house move leading to them almost breaking up. It’s understandable why she doesn’t believe in his ability to do his share come hell or high water.

Again it would be OK if OP wanted children as much as he did and was willing to sacrifice. But she isn’t. He isn’t. If he said ‘I want a baby I know it’ll be hard work’ she might be more willing but he said ‘ I want a baby so I can take it on joyrides’.