To think my fiancé is being unrealistic about parenting?

[pinkdaffodils90]

So I’ve been with my fiancé for 5 years, engaged for 2 (postponed due to covid, fingers crossed for next summer) and for the last few years we have talked about moving out of Oxford so we can afford a bigger house and start a family. We’ve always agreed that we only wanted one and that we definitely weren’t ready yet, but as the years have gone on I still haven’t felt ready and have been more and more put off the idea. There’s a few reasons for this-

1. My fiancé has BPD which is largely under control, but does flare up under stress- the upheaval of moving house last year was the closest we’ve ever come to breaking up. Sleep deprivation is also a big trigger for this.

1. We both really enjoy our own space and spending time on separate hobbies. Our perfect weekend (and what we do most Saturdays) is brunch together, then separate afternoons doing our own thing before coming back together for a film and glass of wine in the evening. I know this wouldn’t be possible if we had a child, we’d both have to give up a lot of our independence, and I really don’t want to.

1. We both get stressed when our ‘to-do’ list gets too long in our free time. We both have high pressure jobs with long hours, so our evenings and weekends are precious. I can’t imagine having to constantly worry about childcare, the school run, spending weekends ferrying them back and forth to clubs etc. He just keeps saying ‘we’d manage, people do’ but I don’t think he’s really considering how much of a change it would be.

I don’t seem to be able to get through to him that I have genuine concerns about how we’d manage and how happy it would make us, he just thinks I’m doubting my abilities. I’m sure I’d be a good mum if I wanted to be one, but I don’t. He keeps talking about wanting to take them camping and on bike rides and give his parents a grandchild to spoil, and I think he’s hyper focused on those idealised moments and not the actual reality.

We have a wonderful relationship and I absolutely adore him, I can’t imagine my life without him, but this is really starting to cause a problem. I don’t want to let him down, but I really don’t think he’s got a clear head about this. I wonder if it’s his biological clock? He’s 42 and I’m 31.

I suppose I’m mostly just venting, but any advice would be very welcome.

OP you sound as though you have a clear view of the situation, having children is a choice and you don't want it.
The only area that you're being vaguely unreasonable is not accepting that your finance does want kids. That he should be of a similar opinion to you due to his health. But wanting to be a parent isn't always logical and if he wants to be a parent, that's be a strong pull. But it doesn't have to be with you, and you're right to understand that the work would fall on your shoulders (actually irrelevant as you don't want to be a parent anyway - that's enough!).
But the real problem is that neither of you truly "believes" the other. Start believing him and start counseling. Rolling along on your separate viewpoints is the kind of action that is easy now, but stores up deep resentment for the future - him turning round in 10 years saying "but I didn't realise you didn't want kids ever".

@vickyp0llard

What you say is so true. Our life would have been a lot easier if my DH and I hadn’t adopted our DDs, there’s no question about that. I have my MH struggles (PTSD and depression/anxiety) and I know my DH has found it hard to cope with the extra burden of my mental health, with the unique challenges of adoption. And now I have Long Covid on top of all that (that couldn’t have been predicted, obviously).

And yet we both knew we wanted to have children and, however hard it’s been at times, we wouldn’t be without our DDs (now 12 and 9).

The desire to have children can’t be turned off like a tap, by logical reasoning.

I am frustrated and upset at the thought that I could lose the man I want to spend my life with because he wants something that I don’t understand how he can want- not because wanting children is wrong, but because it would bring all the things into his life- noise, disruption, stress etc, that we (and especially me) work so hard to keep out.

People have babies knowing that it might kill them because of health conditions they have.

Some animals starve themselves to death to ensure their babies survive.

A friend of mine once told me that her greatest fear in life wasn't herself dying, or her spouse dying, but being unable to have a child.

Procreation isn't logical, it's a biological urge. I didn't have it once, and I couldn't understand that friend. I thought that she was bonkers. I more have that biological urge, and it's as much of a bodily need as needing to eat, or breathe, or have sex. Men don't get the hormone side, but they can have a strong drive to reproduce just the same - think of the male spider wanting to mate, she's knowing he will probably get eaten in the process.

I understand the comments that wanting something isn’t always logical, but with something as enormous as bringing a child into the world and committing to raising it, surely we have a responsibility to think properly about whether we have the capacity? It’s not just about you in that situation, you’re bringing an innocent party into it. I just want him to really think about it, if he genuinely believes he can find coping mechanisms and wants to find someone to share that life with him then I will respect that.

OP, I totally understand where you are coming from.

My DP always wanted kids, but is an only child and doesn't really understand the day to day realities of what it would involve. He has ADHD and has form for only focusing on the fun stuff and ignoring anything he thinks is boring. Which means much of the day to day running of the house and mental load falls to me.

After many difficult arguments, he now does some specific household tasks regularly so it's more equal, but it's been a battle. He doesn't cope well with lack of sleep either! He would 100% be a fun parent, but I would be the one running around making sure they were properly fed, clean, doing all the organising, and so on. Not to mention, we both enjoy our freedom and independence. I am fine with the situation we are in now, but if we added kids into the mix I think I would just end up resenting the situation.

All of this means we've had some very difficult conversations about kids, because I know if we had them most of the load would fall to me. He has now accepted that on a practical basis it's probably not a good idea.

He has capacity to raise a child OP - millions of parents in the UK raise children whilst also having MH difficulties, some as single parents.

Very few of us enter parenthood as perfect oven-ready parents. Most of us have aspects we know we might struggle with, or lives that are incompatible with parenthood - we muddle through.

I have a friend who was agrophobic throughout her early adulthood. She very rarely left the house, and when she did it was a short walk around the block in the cover of darkness. She had a baby, and now manages to do things sure could have only dreamed of.

It may well be that he would cope/manage his difficulties and adapt. It may be that he would struggle, but it's not for you to make that call for him. Most women with pre-existing MH conditions take that risk when choosing to have a family. Even women with perfect MH take that risk in reality, given how high rates on PND are. If he was so unstable he couldnt hold down a job, relationship, was repeatedly admitted etc, then it might be irresponsible, but for your partner - not really.

It feels like you want to believe he doesnt have capacity, and would be irresponsible to have children, to make feel less guilty that you changed your mind in having children. That isn't fair on him at all.

You are perfectly entitled to not want children. His desire to have children is equally valid. I'm very uncomfortable with you trying to persuade him that he'd be incapable and so he should change his mind.

If, and it's not about "wanting something isn’t always logical" this isn't a car, or a new gadget that he wants.

It's not wanting something, it's a biological drive. It's literally what drives many species of animals to their death over this drive.

Yes, it shouldn't be undertaken lightly, but I think you underestimate the power if that drive, which is unsurprising, if you don't have it.

I don’t know, I’m still not convinced that having a strong biological urge makes it okay to do something without being willing to at least think it through somewhat first. We don’t get to be selfish and use our biology as an excuse. You’re right I don’t have that urge so don’t understand it, I’m sure it is difficult, but that doesn’t change my position on it.

I am absolutely not trying to persuade him that he’s not capable by the way- I’ve been very blunt and open here, but far less so with him. He knows that I don’t want a baby, and I’ve encouraged him to think about the noise, stress etc,, but I have never suggested to him that he couldn’t do it. I just want him to actually talk about it! Not just say ‘we’ll manage, people do.’

I think he’s a wonderful man. He is kind and caring and incredibly smart, before this we wanted all the same things out of life, we have lots in common, we laugh all the time. He always tells me how much he appreciates me, and he’s not lazy at all- when he’s well (and it’s not his fault when he isn’t) he’s very hands on with everything around the house. I am utterly besotted with him.

But, it took us over two years of living together before I could have people over for dinner without him panicking at the idea, and he was incredibly tense throughout and spent the whole next day pretty much isolating. I loved him for doing that for me but it wasn’t really worth seeing him so unhappy. A baby is a million times more stressful than that!

I am mostly just venting here now. I’m not cruel, I’m not saying all of these things to him. I’ve written a short letter to make my position on having a baby very clear, and said if he wants a family he will need to find someone else. I just need to find the right moment to share it with him.

Yeah, I did have that urge, but it didn't stop me making spreadsheets of pros and cons! And I'm glad I did, as although my DH's difficulties are milder than yours (or at least, he copes better - he's not diagnosed though), we had an SEN child and it's been really challenging (and expensive) at times. When we were filling in all the forms to get DD some help DH said, 'Wait, I struggle with X, Y, Z...' .

Please don't have a child you don't want. It is incredibly unfair on the child.
You've been honest with him but he is choosing to not believe you.
In your shoes I would be talking to the GP about sterilisation.

Only have a child if you really want one because your entire life will change and there's no going back. It's 24/7, there's very little downtime and from what you've said neither of you sound suited to it. Also you can never predict what may happen, my DH and I were ambivalent about kids but decided to have just the one. Well we had twins so now there's two!

@Phineyj

Yeah, I did have that urge, but it didn't stop me making spreadsheets of pros and cons! And I'm glad I did, as although my DH's difficulties are milder than yours (or at least, he copes better - he's not diagnosed though), we had an SEN child and it's been really challenging (and expensive) at times. When we were filling in all the forms to get DD some help DH said, 'Wait, I struggle with X, Y, Z...' .

Thank you, exactly! I’m not trying to tell him he can’t do it, I just want him to acknowledge that it won’t all magically work without any prior thought as to how! For his sake as well as the health and happiness of his hypothetical partner/child.

Someone who mopes and avoids his partner because of friends coming to his home is v unlikely to be a good father.

You sound very focused on accommodating his wants and preferences. That would be even more exhausting and difficult if you had a DC.

So you want him to sit down, and plan how he'd parent and manage, even though you've told him you don't want children, and have no intention of having children.

That's really mixed messages, and a bit cruel.

It's like asking someone to plan their wedding, when you are intending (and have told them) that you'd jilt then we the altar anyway.

@Moonbabysmum

So you want him to sit down, and plan how he'd parent and manage, even though you've told him you don't want children, and have no intention of having children.

That's really mixed messages, and a bit cruel.

It's like asking someone to plan their wedding, when you are intending (and have told them) that you'd jilt then we the altar anyway.

No, I don’t. I want him to acknowledge that if he stays with me he won’t have a child, which he doesn’t seem to be doing so far (he says he is, but it’s all very casual and hypothetical.)

I am talking on here, not to him, about how upset I am that he might leave me for this misty eyed idea of parenthood without even seeming to consider the impact it would have in his life and the changes he’d have to accommodate. I am talking about it here for support, I am not trying to do anything to him. My heart is breaking at the thought of him leaving me for something that I don’t believe (I know it’s his choice, and I won’t stop him, but I know him bloody well by now and I am able to form this opinion) will make him or his family happy.

@pinkdaffodils90

Just to be clear, he knows. I’ve told him multiple times over several weeks/maybe months by now. He’s just not taking me seriously. I’ve told him he can leave if he wants children with someone else, and he says he doesn’t. The issue is that he just won’t seem to take it in. Thank you for all the advice- particularly those of you who’ve pointed out that maybe I’ve made it sound too conditional or given him hope I’ll change my mind- maybe I’ll write it in a letter to make sure he understands.

Giving reasons why you don't want something, can make it seem that of those reasons were fixed

It's his choice to make though, it's not up to you to decide what's right or wrong for him
just like you know you don't want children. The core of it is that you don't want him to leave you, but ultimately sounds like the best thing for him is to do just that

... you'd want those things, in this case a child. You need to be brief and not add why's, as they say on here 'no' is a complete sentence. Make it clear you won't be having children, that you love him and want to be together, but that if you stay together he will never have a child.

@LunaAndHerMoonDragons

... you'd want those things, in this case a child. You need to be brief and not add why's, as they say on here 'no' is a complete sentence. Make it clear you won't be having children, that you love him and want to be together, but that if you stay together he will never have a child.

Yeah that’s where I’ve realised I’ve been going wrong. I keep saying ‘I don’t want them because x, y, x’ and I really appreciate the advice I’ve had on here about how to be clear and firm, I hope my letter will achieve that, it’s very short and to the point. I just need to be brave enough to give it to him and face the consequences, but I want to cry every time I think about it.

Just to add before I get jumped on- the reasons I’ve given him previously have all been mine (don’t want to change lifestyle, give up hobbies, no local family support etc.) I haven’t blamed him.

I do get it. Probably more then you'd realise tbh.

I didn't want children. My then boyfriend (now husband) did. He decided he would rather stay with me and have no children. I decided that I couldn't ask him to give up his dreams of fatherhood. We both were trying to persuade eachother, not for what we wanted, but what the other person wanted, because their happiness felt most important. We certainly didn't want to break up over it.

As it was, I moved from being anti kids to ambivalent, and took the biggest risk of my life, and got pregnant. It worked out for me, but I wouldn't recommend it, as it was risky!!

As soon as the baby was born my maternal instinct switched on, and I then had a huge urge for a second.

So I do understand your heartache, and I understand both the urge to have a child, and the bewilderment that anyone could want something so badly when they are ill suited to it. But trust me, as someone who had experienced both having, and not having that biological drive, it's take powerful. Much more so than I'd assumed.

It's a huge thing for either of you to compromise on, and I do feel for you, as it's not going to be easy. Don't make compromises you aren't happy to make, but don't give any false hope either.

It would be very sad if this broke you up, but perhaps less sad than either of you being pushed into a future that you don't want, with all the resentment that would bring.

A kind, attractive 42 yr old who pulls his weight around the house and actively wants kids. If you split, chances are someone else will snap him up in a second. How will you feel OP if in 18 months he is having a child with someone else?

He's not bothered be sure he knows HIS lifestyle won't change.

Read all the threads on here about mums who are cycling etc widows! The men continue their careers and hobbies whilst the mum is chained to the kitchen sink.

If he isn't prepared to commit to half the school runs and 'babysitting' one full day and night every weekend dont marry him!!!

Jesus Christ, SHE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN. I wish posters would stop trying emotionally blackmail her into thinking she does.
I think you are absolutely right in your decision and your letter is spot on.
Girls are raised to believe our biological destiny is to have kids. Boys are not. We need to stop this discourse, it puts pressure on women who don’t want or can’t have kids.

'I’m still not convinced that having a strong biological urge makes it okay to do something without being willing to at least think it through somewhat first'

Completely agree OP. He's being really irresponsible by refusing to think about any of the practicalities of what parenthood would involve