To think my fiancé is being unrealistic about parenting?

[pinkdaffodils90]

So I’ve been with my fiancé for 5 years, engaged for 2 (postponed due to covid, fingers crossed for next summer) and for the last few years we have talked about moving out of Oxford so we can afford a bigger house and start a family. We’ve always agreed that we only wanted one and that we definitely weren’t ready yet, but as the years have gone on I still haven’t felt ready and have been more and more put off the idea. There’s a few reasons for this-

1. My fiancé has BPD which is largely under control, but does flare up under stress- the upheaval of moving house last year was the closest we’ve ever come to breaking up. Sleep deprivation is also a big trigger for this.

1. We both really enjoy our own space and spending time on separate hobbies. Our perfect weekend (and what we do most Saturdays) is brunch together, then separate afternoons doing our own thing before coming back together for a film and glass of wine in the evening. I know this wouldn’t be possible if we had a child, we’d both have to give up a lot of our independence, and I really don’t want to.

1. We both get stressed when our ‘to-do’ list gets too long in our free time. We both have high pressure jobs with long hours, so our evenings and weekends are precious. I can’t imagine having to constantly worry about childcare, the school run, spending weekends ferrying them back and forth to clubs etc. He just keeps saying ‘we’d manage, people do’ but I don’t think he’s really considering how much of a change it would be.

I don’t seem to be able to get through to him that I have genuine concerns about how we’d manage and how happy it would make us, he just thinks I’m doubting my abilities. I’m sure I’d be a good mum if I wanted to be one, but I don’t. He keeps talking about wanting to take them camping and on bike rides and give his parents a grandchild to spoil, and I think he’s hyper focused on those idealised moments and not the actual reality.

We have a wonderful relationship and I absolutely adore him, I can’t imagine my life without him, but this is really starting to cause a problem. I don’t want to let him down, but I really don’t think he’s got a clear head about this. I wonder if it’s his biological clock? He’s 42 and I’m 31.

I suppose I’m mostly just venting, but any advice would be very welcome.

You don't want a child. That's the beginning and the end of it and mounting detailed arguments as to why it's a bad idea is a mistake; it's making him think it's a genuine debate where he could win you over by coming up with the most convincing argument. He can't because this isn't about who is objectively right about whether having children is a good idea in your specific circumstances. You don't want children.

Sorry for the confusion, by BPD I meant bipolar disorder, he’s type 1. So manic episodes and depressive episodes.

Sadly unique specialism and long hours does not equal high pay for us, my job is fairly average too. We’re okay, but a cut in hours or looking to hire a nanny wouldn’t be easy, unless we move somewhere much, much cheaper- and we both love Oxford and our work is here.

I do feel awful that it probably does seem like a sudden change of heart to him, I just always thought I would want them later, but that doesn’t seem to be happening- the opposite does.

I do appreciate all of the replies and advice, thank you. It’s a really upsetting situation and I absolutely take my share of the blame for it.

It sounds like you’re not averse to being a mother, but parenting with him concerns you?

I have DD5, and honestly I didn’t know how bad my DH MH was until we were in the thick of the sleepless nights. DD didn’t sleep until she was 1.5. It’s a lot better now, and you do just muddle along. But parenting a baby/toddler/small human is hard enough without dealing with a MH breakdown.

Being a parent is the hardest thing I have ever done by the way.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

he just thinks I’m doubting my abilities.

No, you are doubting his abilities. Sure, you must be wondering whether you can fill the gaps that he is likely to leave, but you need to confront the possibility that he's not a brilliant bet as a father. How will he cope with sleep deprivation? What if his BPD flares up again - will you have look after everyone? How will he support you?

One big question you need to ask yourself is, do you really not want children at all? Or do you want children but only with a stronger, more reliable father?

This is something you could realistically explore together in marriage counselling. I would do that before starting a family.

This.

And you are right to be asking these questions as its you who will be picking up the pieces when he can't/won't do his share.

I think there are two separate questions here actually.

The first is do you want children?
And the second is do you want children with this man?

You may say yes the the former and no to the latter and thats a problem you need to address if thats the case. You need to be honest with yourself.

Don't just have children because you feel you should without fully addressing these concerns and doubts...

Isn’t sleep deprivation usually an early warning sign of slipping into a hypomanic episode rather than a trigger? Obviously mental illnesses absolutely shouldn’t rule out having children but you’re right that it should be considered. Is he usually well controlled? Will his medication cause problems with fertility/ risk of abnormalities in the baby? Does his family have a very strong history? I suspect that at 42 he’s at a slightly different stage to you and maybe feeling the need to get in with it more acutely. However, if you don’t feel at least 80% sure you want a baby I definitely wouldn’t budge. Potentially there would be ways round some of the issues with childcare etc but if you don’t feel the urge to have a baby don’t be swayed.
When men say ‘we’ll manage” generally that means the women will shoulder most of the burden because as a mother they’ll have no choice.

First off he doesn’t have a biological clock. Second if he’s BPD I would say it’s a terrible idea to have kids with him especially if you don’t want to and you aren’t prepared to be the sole parent if things go bad with him.
Even if he seems like he’ll be an involved dad, his BPD makes it impossible to tell if this will actually happen. What if he gets worse or is having a tough time? Even if you stay together then parenting is still going to be your job.

And let’s be honest as women we always take on the grunt work of parenting anyway. If you are alright with that and are prepared fine (I was). But if your thinking you will both do the same amount then I’d advise you to take a look at all the posts on here from women who thought the same until biology and reality hit - then add his BPD on top of that and it becomes a recipe for disaster.

Just read your post where you clarified it was bipolar. I was assuming borderline. I still stand by my post but I wouldn’t say don’t have kids with a bipolar man - I would just say be prepared to shoulder most of the hard parenting while looking out for him too. If your good with that ok but it doesn’t sound like you are.

I actually really feel for him, as it's sounds like you've told him for s long time that you wanted one child, but weren't ready yet, and now you've changed your mind and don't want a child at all. That's your right, and your shouldn't have a baby for him, but equally, he shouldn't give up having a family, if it's important to him.

He doesn't sound unrealistic about what children entail, to me, just that he'd rather not worry about how you'd manage the school run, before you've even conceived. Most people don't, and most people muddle their way through. It's also fairly pointless to plan extensively so early, as life and attitudes can change so much.

I was going to have only 1 child and go back to working in a very demanding job full time at 6m. When it came to it, I didnt want to do that - over now got 2 children and work full time (very compressed hours) at home.

Weekends were about brunch and socialising and sleeping in till noon. Now they are not, but i love my new life as much as my old.

Having done idea about how you'll approach leave, responsibilities etc is good, but there's no point over analysing it.

Ultimately though, you've now said you don't want a baby. That's fairly conclusive. Your do owe it to him to be honest that you don't know if you'd ever change your mind, and give him your blessing to go your seperate ways of it's important. He might not want to wait 5 years and become a first time dad in his late 40s, even if your do change your mind in the future

The BPD is a problem, yes, but the worse problem is that although the baby is what he says he wants and not what you say you want, somehow the responsibility for figuring out the practicalities of a baby has already fallen entirely onto you, not him. And the baby isn't even here yet!

He has said he wouldn’t expect me to have a baby just for him and that he wants to be with me regardless, but it’s hard to know how genuine that is when I know he’s still not really taking in what I’m saying- I try to have a serious conversation but he’ll only talk very casually and hypothetically. Our communication is usually really strong so this is frustrating and confusing!

There doesn't have to be any blame on either side, but the communication isn't working. Marriage/relationship counselling would give you both a space where you can honestly and openly communicate about what you both really want and need.

A child is one thing that cant be compromised on. And theres a good chance more than 50% will fall to you.

One child is not a compromise, its the one area both people need what they need, whether thats zerp, one or more.

Don't feel there's any blame to be attached - you've done some serious reflection and realised that parenting isn't for you. It's a gift to know your own mind, however long it takes to get there.

The hard part is persuading your fiance that this is a final decision, and I don't know how you do that.

You won't manage it though if you're sugar-coating at all. If you're ever saying 'maybe' or 'i don't think I'll change my mind' or putting any context around your decision like 'after the last year I don't see how anyone wants to be at home with a baby' - these can all be taken as conditionals that might change given the right circumstances.

So you do have to be firm and consistent, and ask him - more than once - if he's sure he wants to be with you without the chance of a baby.

It might actually be worth doing that with a counsellor too, so you can both unpack your feelings and get help to identify unforeseen consequences.

Can you not put it to him tha you nearly broke up after moving house-im not saying that not stressful because it is but it will be worse with a child its 24/7 not a few days of packing and unpacking

it will come down to you to reduce your hours/change job and you dont even want children it will be a disaster and might break you up anyway

@TarasCrazyTiara

My husband does more than 50% and has done from birth. Yes, s lot of men don't pull their weight, but your address less likely to hear about the good ones on MN.

We've split the nights, made sure we've had similar accounts of rest throughout (even when ebf) split the chores, the grunt work, took extensive shared parental leave, takes off more time than me to cover illness etc.

It's always is doing pregnancy and birth, and breastfeeding of we choose to do that (which we don't have to) but everything else can be equal.

It's not always left to the woman 🙄

My cousin has bipolar. He's a lovely guy but it seriously impacts on his parenting ability. I feel really sorry for his ex wife (yes, they split up over it ).

It seems to me that you are coming at it from completely opposite sides. He's only thinking of the idealistic side and you're really only thinking of the downsides. Yes all the things that you said can and are likely to be true, but there is a great deal of joy and pleasure as well. It also seems that you are deciding not to have a child based on the effects it will have on him. If he didn't have BPD how would you then feel?

Children are fabulous but your life as you currently know it is effectively over. Doesn't mean that the new life is bad, just not what you currently have.

I’m confused as to why people are almost blaming your partner for not being capable… Do these people know your husband and his ability to be a father? No.

The issue here is you not wanting children and him wanting one. I think it is very, very good of you to realise that you want a child-free future; plenty of people have children just because society says you should. Good for you.

However, you are being selfish by wanting him to remain childless for you. I understand you want to stay with him but you also said you would have children one day. You owe it to him to be upfront about your decision and feelings and allow him to decide whether he wants to remain childless too. He will only resent you for forcing it on him. It is not your place to say whether he is being realistic or not, it is his choice if he wants to be a parent. Not one person can imagine what parenthood is like and we all have ideas about it but they never meet expectations; yet humankind continues.

@Snaketime

Could you give up 1 weekend and offer to babysit your nephew for the weekend so your partner could get a glimpse at hat it is really like?

This is a good idea in theory, however in practice, it might not pan out too well. What if on that one weekend the OP's nephew is delightful, easy breezy, and her DP thinks 'ah yes we can have a child, it will be all be lovely and so easy'. I look after my nephews fairly regularly, , and most of the time it's like that.

Then there are the times when they're grumpy, difficult, and, well, just toddlers. And that's fine, I adore them, I love spending time with them even when they're a bit difficult. But there's also an end in sight. When they're keeping me up all night, I know that the next night I can go home to my nice quiet house and not have to be responsible for a tiny person. I can not have to change nappies, feed and entertain them.

That's just the physical responsibility of it. The truth is, I absolutely cannot know it's like to be fully responsible for raising a child, knowing that their happiness, their future, the adult that they will become, is all on me. That's both a tremendous gift and a tremendous burden, and one that can never be replicated by a weekend of babysitting.

@Moonbabysmum

Not always but usually. I’m just saying, between women who willingly do more which to be honest is a lot, women who are willing to do more but wish their husbands would do more than next to nothing and women who go maybe 75% 25%, there really aren’t that many who do it equally.
If anything I think women who want equal parenting are more likely to be on Mums net than not answering those types of threads.

I know lots of couples of all ages with kids and know them enough to know there isn’t a single one among them who would go 50/50 on parenting. Actually even 75/25 would probably be a stretch even for most.
It just is what it is. Between biology, natural parenting instinct and society I doubt there will ever be a time when parenting is equally split between men and women.

The other thing that strikes me, is that if a woman came on here, and said that she has bipolar, but it's largely controlled (although struggles in stressful situations), and she wanted a baby,n would be full of women saying his they've managed to have a family what also having MH struggles.

Having controlled bipolar and being a mum isn't that rare (I know a couple of women who do), and it's certainly never been thought of as a deal-breaker on mumsnet.

Given a lot of women struggle with their MH after having a baby, this place is actually very supportive of managing with mental health whilst parenting.

So the idea that it would be a bad idea to have a child with a man with bipolar strikes me as odd, especially as many women are also at possible to point out that he probably wouldn't do much parenting anyway - which is it? It feels like one rule for men, and another for women.

But don't have a baby for him - you need to want a child too.

In your situation I would be thinking twice about children, even if I wanted them. The stress of a child could very well impact his BPD and who will do all the hard work if he is struggling?
Also Bipolar type 1 is often hereditary so in future years there is some chance you could be dealing with a young adult with the same condition. Parenting a child with a mental health condition is very, very difficult.
I don't think you need to bring him round to your way of thinking...just state your case and leave the ball in his court. There really is no compromise here!

Has he actually spent any time with or around very young children? I'd ask a friend with a child under 5 if they'd like some time off & see how he copes on his own , no help or input from you . Obviously be there too, but stand back & see how he fares .. Thatmight be a reality check & it might solidify your feelings one way or the other. ( You can still find adult time if you carve it out & work as a team)..

I’m a lot older than you and don’t have children through choice… I think more people should be honest about their feelings about this. I think you’re being very sensible about the situation, so many times on here I wonder why people didn’t think of the consequences before having a child. Do what is right for you. As a slightly older first time dad your fiancée may well find it more difficult regardless of his MH. Do you have friends/family with a young child you could stay with for a weekend, let him experience a young baby first hand. Dreams and reality can be so far removed

Good grief there’s nothing wrong with him wanting to have a child, so what if he has a romanticised view of parenting - isn’t that how most people start? It’s also not unreasonable OP that you don’t want a child. Unfortunately with something like this there isn’t a compromise, one of you will end up resenting the other. Please don’t marry him, I think you both need to move on and find someone who shares the same goals as you.

You need to be really clear about not wanting a baby. You don't want one. It's also a bad idea to have one with him because he's unrealistic about it, his health problems would likely worsen and you'd be left holding the baby.

It might sound flippant, but would a dog or cat help fill the gap?

Honestly don't do it, you don't sound like you want to. I always knew I wouldn't to be a mum and I knew it wld be hard. It's harder than I thought, more so since having a second. It is worth it but u have to absolutely want to have children and be willing to make the sacrifices of which there are many especially more so for women.