To think my fiancé is being unrealistic about parenting?

[pinkdaffodils90]

So I’ve been with my fiancé for 5 years, engaged for 2 (postponed due to covid, fingers crossed for next summer) and for the last few years we have talked about moving out of Oxford so we can afford a bigger house and start a family. We’ve always agreed that we only wanted one and that we definitely weren’t ready yet, but as the years have gone on I still haven’t felt ready and have been more and more put off the idea. There’s a few reasons for this-

1. My fiancé has BPD which is largely under control, but does flare up under stress- the upheaval of moving house last year was the closest we’ve ever come to breaking up. Sleep deprivation is also a big trigger for this.

1. We both really enjoy our own space and spending time on separate hobbies. Our perfect weekend (and what we do most Saturdays) is brunch together, then separate afternoons doing our own thing before coming back together for a film and glass of wine in the evening. I know this wouldn’t be possible if we had a child, we’d both have to give up a lot of our independence, and I really don’t want to.

1. We both get stressed when our ‘to-do’ list gets too long in our free time. We both have high pressure jobs with long hours, so our evenings and weekends are precious. I can’t imagine having to constantly worry about childcare, the school run, spending weekends ferrying them back and forth to clubs etc. He just keeps saying ‘we’d manage, people do’ but I don’t think he’s really considering how much of a change it would be.

I don’t seem to be able to get through to him that I have genuine concerns about how we’d manage and how happy it would make us, he just thinks I’m doubting my abilities. I’m sure I’d be a good mum if I wanted to be one, but I don’t. He keeps talking about wanting to take them camping and on bike rides and give his parents a grandchild to spoil, and I think he’s hyper focused on those idealised moments and not the actual reality.

We have a wonderful relationship and I absolutely adore him, I can’t imagine my life without him, but this is really starting to cause a problem. I don’t want to let him down, but I really don’t think he’s got a clear head about this. I wonder if it’s his biological clock? He’s 42 and I’m 31.

I suppose I’m mostly just venting, but any advice would be very welcome.

But maybe you can't both make such a plan because there really isn't one.

I think the plan may be that OP does everything.

OP, what happened when he was unwell recently? How was that managed?

There is no reason why a couple can't do separate activities at weekend with a child - in fact that's often suggested so that the parents can get a bit of a break, you just alternate who has the child.

I also don't see what's so unrealistic about his ideas of going camping and on bike rides. I've been camping about half a dozen times with my 2-4 age kids, and we go on bike rides. We also spend a lot of time giggling together pretending to be animals, snuggled on the sofa watching films, playing at the park, having picnics, going on days out. No one goes 'I can't wait to become a parent so I can change stinky nappies, or only sleep in 2 hour increments' even if thats the reality. Most of us look forward to the nice bits of parenting - it doesn't mean we aren't willing to do the shit (often literally) side.

Yes kids can be joyful and fun, but that's a small minority of the time, most times they are noisy and demanding and inherently selfish (survival mechanism)

That's very depressing view of parenthood.
I'd say that my children are joyful and fun around 75% of the time. They are often demanding and noise at the same time, but its still fun. Everyone's experiences are different, and no doubt its hard, but its also some of the most fun I've ever had.

It sounds to me like he's got a fairly normal view of parenthood, and wanting children. No ones lives are 'compatible' with children until they arrive. Everyone likes doing things that aren't necessarily compatible with having young children. You either give them up for a while or find a way around it.

But parenting isn't for everyone, and if you don't want to, then thats it really. But there's nothing specific about your situation which means that kids aren't practical. Most couples have some reason that kids are hard, whether that's an imperfect relationship, financial difficulties, baggage, or mental or physical health difficulties for either (or both) parties. The point being, that most people who want kids, want to find a workaround to make it doable. You don't want a baby, so there's no compromise on that, and that's ok. Equally, there's nothing wrong with him wanting children, its perfectly natural.

Also, will you be able to rely on him in the event of a life disaster or if you really needed him due to.... Sickness, bereavement etc etc.I apologise if you've already gone through something like this with him. Children aren't the only things difficult in life. Plenty of bad stuff can and does happen. Will he be your rock and support? Personally, if i had any doubts on these fronts, id be considering...

You don’t want to be a mother. That’s the end of it.
Your description of how life changes is spot on.

He needs to understand that the life you have now will cease to exist.

'He’s just not taking me seriously. I’ve told him he can leave if he wants children with someone else, and he says he doesn’t. The issue is that he just won’t seem to take it in'

Does he not take you seriously in general, or is it specific to this issue because he's thinking that all women want children really, and you'll change your mind eventually?

Do not have children with him.

He thinks ye'd manage, but he actually means YOU would manage.

He has MH problems, so no doubt YOU would carry the full load to protect his mental health.

There is absolutely no way I would have a child with him.

You would be carrying him and a baby.

Not a chance.

Let him find some other fool to "manage" his child.

Well done for not entertaining this pie in the sky idea that would ruin YOUR life.

I wish I'd had your perspective before starting a family. I had rose tinted glasses on. You're right it's really tough, amazing in many way but really tough.

Parenting is not for everyone and there is nothing wrong with choosing not to have children. And nothing wrong with being realistic--you are correct that it is tremendously demanding and stressful, especially if you fall in that gap where you can't (or don't want to) give up your career/job, but can't afford to pay for tons of high-quality childcare or other services to make domestic life easier. It is a real grind trying to balance work and parenting.

I love my child more than anything and I'm very grateful I have her. That said, if I had to live my life over again, I'm not sure I'd make the same choice. You can still have a fulfilling life without children. I can understand your frustration that he's not listening to you--I wonder if it's because for some years previously you seemed open to the idea. I don't think you are wrong to have settled on a decision now, but maybe he thinks you will still change your mind.

Obviously YANBU, and neither is he, but the truth is you can't have half a child.

It's one thing that you just can't compromise on - he wants to be a parent and you don't. Unless he is less keen than he seems, or you are more keen than you seem, I don't think this is gonna work :(

I know this is not true of everyone but just be aware that things can change very rapidly on the baby front. I was completely and utterly staunchly not to have a child. On so many levels it was not right for me (for almost all of the reasons you state). Then at 39 it hit me like a stream train. Managed to have DC but will always regret not having them earlier. My point is don’t get in a fixed state of thinking about this - try to think about it from every angle (and I appreciate for you this is more complicated by your fiancés condition. It has been greatest happiness of my life and I almost left it too late.
(Ps I always know that my life would have equally been completely fine without DC)

You could not be any more accurate and reasonable. Everyone should have these reality-based conversations before having children. Those that don’t, or who ignore the flags, may end up miserable and highly stressed parents.

Don't do it. Your reasons are absolutely rock solid. He isn't thinking it through. As long as you're clear about how you feel now, then that leaves room for working out a future. He will have to decide whether his need for a family is that strong. and I don't think he is being realistic at all.

I think it's really unfair to blame his mental health issues and say he wouldn't be able to parent - loads of people have MH issues and parent. Saying "I wouldn't have kids with someone like that" - imagine if a man said they wouldn't have kids with a woman with MH issues!

The main issue here is you don't want kids and he does. I know how you feel because I have disliked children all my life and know I never want them. I also love doing my hobbies on Saturdays, having lie-ins and a quiet tidy house. You can come up with all the logical reasons about practicalities/finances/the environment/how they are noisy and ruin your life, but people who want children just have this urge and rose-tinted glasses on and won't care about any of that. For them the positives are something they can't live without, for me even the positives don't appeal in any way. You will have to just keep repeating and being assertive that you never want that, because in his view you've always been on the fence.

I was pretty upfront with my husband from the start. If he develops an urge for children he is free to leave.

I don't think he's being idealistic necessarily, it sounds like he just wants kids more than you do. All those things you've said about parenting are true but for some, they are worth it. It sounds as though it would be for him but wouldn't for you!

Oh my god, three years ago I was YOU. I didn't really want children, every time my partner brought it up I'd say "yes, but we have such a good life - we can have holidays, relax, sleep in... look at how stressed and tired X is all the time" and he'd just brush it off with the same dismissal. I was afraid of how much work it would be, and he seemed to think it would be a breeze, and everything would sort itself out.

The reason he thinks that, to be blunt, is because he's a man. Men have had a woman racing around in the background doing all the work children create, while they stand around with a beer gabbing about everything they know about parenting with the other dads, for generations. Usually in front of the football.

So I caved, thinking he kept bringing up children because he was generally keen on parenting and fastforward to now: I do ALL of the work. I still have my job, but ALL my annual leave is gobbled up by the days my son is off sick from nursery, has appointments, etc etc to infinity while he uses his days for rest and entertainment. My partner's answer to everything is "just get my mom to do it", i.e. where's the next available woman I can offload this onto? I am the one who doesn't get a shower every day, has stayed working from home, had to chip away at my own financial independence by reducing my hours, carry the entirety of the mental load involved in my son's health wellbeing and education. On and on for infinity.

You have the realistic, adult expectations of parenthood here, not him. And I would bet money that you would be the one carrying the vast majority of those responsibilities if you became parents because he doesn't even recognise their existence. You are right here.

BUT, despite this existential howling, and my current lack of sleep and hygiene, I DO love my son beyond words. When I look at him I actually feel IN LOVE with him. I have never found another human so physically beautiful, so charming, sweet and fascinating and worth every ounce of effort I can give him. So as much as I resent being a parent in the abstract, I do have a person who makes everything in life more important. and has probably led me kicking and screaming down a path of living a fuller life than the more self-centred one I led before.

It's really swings and roundabouts! Having a child is simultaneously the best and worst thing you will ever do in life. If you are the mom, it won't be just one of those things.

Ps I would ask him to agree to leave it for 3 or 4 years (on the basis that you won’t have them unless you change your mind) and see how you feel then. I know this is coming from someone who had to their first after 40 but I think you can afford to wait longer. In the meantime see if you can ‘borrow’ some kids so he understands precisely what he is getting into. Then take the pressure off yourself for a while.
I literally cannot emphasise how much I did not want to be a mother - I was practically the spokesperson - and here I am headlong into it.

You don't have to have kids. But you do need to solidify that before you get married.

Maybe tell him you're thinking of getting sterilised and force the conversation he's avoiding.

Before a child you can't imagine how you'd fit everything in, after a child you can't imagine what you did with all that time. You adapt.
My babies have brought my greatest joy and greatest love, but not without alot of work/stress/worry too. You can't get away from it.
That said, you answered your own conundrum and everything else is just noise and fluff -

I’m sure I’d be a good mum if I wanted to be one, but I don’t

@Scratchybaby

Oh my god, three years ago I was YOU. I didn't really want children, every time my partner brought it up I'd say "yes, but we have such a good life - we can have holidays, relax, sleep in... look at how stressed and tired X is all the time" and he'd just brush it off with the same dismissal. I was afraid of how much work it would be, and he seemed to think it would be a breeze, and everything would sort itself out.

The reason he thinks that, to be blunt, is because he's a man. Men have had a woman racing around in the background doing all the work children create, while they stand around with a beer gabbing about everything they know about parenting with the other dads, for generations. Usually in front of the football.

So I caved, thinking he kept bringing up children because he was generally keen on parenting and fastforward to now: I do ALL of the work. I still have my job, but ALL my annual leave is gobbled up by the days my son is off sick from nursery, has appointments, etc etc to infinity while he uses his days for rest and entertainment. My partner's answer to everything is "just get my mom to do it", i.e. where's the next available woman I can offload this onto? I am the one who doesn't get a shower every day, has stayed working from home, had to chip away at my own financial independence by reducing my hours, carry the entirety of the mental load involved in my son's health wellbeing and education. On and on for infinity.

You have the realistic, adult expectations of parenthood here, not him. And I would bet money that you would be the one carrying the vast majority of those responsibilities if you became parents because he doesn't even recognise their existence. You are right here.

BUT, despite this existential howling, and my current lack of sleep and hygiene, I DO love my son beyond words. When I look at him I actually feel IN LOVE with him. I have never found another human so physically beautiful, so charming, sweet and fascinating and worth every ounce of effort I can give him. So as much as I resent being a parent in the abstract, I do have a person who makes everything in life more important. and has probably led me kicking and screaming down a path of living a fuller life than the more self-centred one I led before.

It's really swings and roundabouts! Having a child is simultaneously the best and worst thing you will ever do in life. If you are the mom, it won't be just one of those things.

Just to offer another perspective - I was worried about all these things and it is the complete opposite for me. DH does more than me and we both took equal financial and career hits.
OP can you speak to other people who manage BPD and babies?

The weekend leisure time is do-able with one DC: you just each get less and take turns! A bigger problem if you’re both career focused, IME, is weekday working vs parenting.

Many, many men are unwilling to prioritise the latter, but expect their wife to do so.

Would ask him whether he would share the night and early morning parenting, and the weekday parenting once you return to work (curtailing his working hours / leisure).

Oh, and the hugely increased domestic work that comes with DC1.

I think it's as simple as:

He's willing the make the sacrifice, you aren't.

Let him go OP so he can have kids.

I think it's really unfair to blame his mental health issues and say he wouldn't be able to parent - loads of people have MH issues and parent. Saying "I wouldn't have kids with someone like that" - imagine if a man said they wouldn't have kids with a woman with MH issues!

IME regardless of who has the MH issue, it's the woman who takes the extra burden.

Hes going to cut back their career to accommodate school runs and after school clubs and activities etc?

Set an alarm every hour for a few nights and stand in the park in the cold etc and don't do your hobby and see what he thinks.

I had a child that didn't sleep for many years and was up at 4.30 to 5am everyday. It nearly broke me and I don't have BPD and didn't work full time then but I do now and everyone a juggling act.