To be a bit hmmm about this teacher's choice of disciplining?

[GlomOfNit]

DS (13) year 9, science class. He's come home aggrieved and sad because his biology teacher has said that there will be absolutely no more science practicals in her classroom ... until either some culprits own up or their classmates snitch them in.

One of the boys (they're all boys) who apparently is a constant PITA, squirted another boy in the eyes with some milk out of a pipette. Obviously squirting someone in the eyes with anything during a science lesson isn't behaviour the school wants, and she came down like a ton of bricks and sent this boy straight to the isolation room. As he left, about a third of the rest of the class jeered, clapped etc - a big rowdy noise apparently.
One of them buried his safety specs into a fire bucket of sand (I'm imagining that may have scratched them.) She lost her temper with all this, and at the end of the class, demanded that the boys who jeered in a silly way/the one with the safety glasses own up, OR their classmates contact her to let her know which ones it was. (I mean, she was RIGHT THERE in the room!) And until she got that information there would be no more science practicals.

I'm probably being a bit perfect firstborn here (as he is) but is this not a bit unreasonable? It's unfair to punish the majority of the class for something that a few did right under her nose (so why couldn't she identify the culprits herself?), but massively unjust to withhold practical lessons (these have only just re-started after pandemic restrictions) which are part of their learning. And surely really bad practice to ask the 'goodies' to dob in the 'baddies'? Divisive and will have repercussions. Surely the onus was on her to identify the troublemakers?

To be clear, I'm supportive of the school to exact discipline and I appreciate that sometimes the entire class will suffer, but I don't think essential teaching should be withheld, and I don't think it's fair to ask the majority to act as her eyes.

You do know that teachers have only the standard one pair of eyes, yes? Make more decisions per second than a brain surgeon? Yup she may have overreacted and probably will change her mind but at the time was reaching for a punishment that she hoped would route out the trouble makers. Kids dob each other in all the time and if it’s handled carefully no one needs to know.

I wonder if you also know that every kid she accused would swear blind that it wasn’t him. Kids will tell you they weren’t talking when you’ve just watched them tell Johnny about their weekend and are incredibly affronted you would dare suggest they were anything but pure as the driven snow. Chewing gum in their mouths is just them “chewing their tongue”. You need a kid who saw it with their own two eyes to back you up.

Give the poor woman a break. Kids only tell their parents a fraction of what happens in school.

Safety first. If they can't manage the basics of safe behaviour then yeah sadly they can't have science pracs. The dobbing things is probably misjudged but they sound like ratbags.

If something happens in her room because she continued to do practical work knowing full well those kids can't behave, that's her career over. All risk assessments consider behaviour of the students. Poor behaviour means practical work is stopped.

There are two students there at least who aren't wearing safety glasses, which is reason enough to stop practical work alone IMO.

Add to that that practical work isn't actually essential in science, even the exam boards now say it can be replaced with videos or teacher demos, and there is a lot of research currently into the benefits (or lack of) of practical work in science

I mean, stealing and burying safety goggles? Deliberately squirting pipettes in people's eyes? Of course pracs can't continue. What choice does she have?

I would say it is too dangerous to do a practical with that class.

Well kinda lucky it was milk not hydrochloric acid that went in the eye. But a large class not behaving can have serious consequences, so I wouldn’t blame her for zero tolerance.

Hang on - she should be able to see every single student and object in the room at all times? Right. It’s not necessarily her fault that their behaviour is so awful. Teachers can only do so much in terms of discipline, they’re not miracle workers with a class like this. Of course she can’t do practicals with them if she can’t trust them. It’s dangerous.

It sounds like they are too immature to be doing practicals. I would not want practicals to continue when my child might be unsafe

Those things sound dangerous rather than disruptive. If they can't be trusted to not be immature then fair play on the teacher. It might seem unfair on the others, but one of those not messing about could be injured by someone squirting stuff, playing around with the equipment. God forbid your DS got acid in his eye or something as someone was mucking around, would you be impressed if it turns out the class had been messing about and she just let them carry on? She only has one set of eyes.

Mega unreasonable.

The teacher can’t continue with practical lessons until the whole class adhere to health and safety guidelines.

Plus I think she wants the "naughty" kids to own up rather than the "good" ones to do the grassing up. Technically they can watch the experiment done on video if the teacher can't guarantee everyone's safety

Next time you're in a group of 30+ see if you can watch every single one at the same time.

She was thinking on her feet while the class were acting appallingly.

They don't sound safe to be doing practical lessons of they're behaving like that. I wouldn't want my DC to be in a class where others were behaving like this, so I'd be pleased the teacher wasn't letting them get away with it. She probably knows perfectly well who jeered, but would (quite rightly) like an apology from them.

@Doona

I mean, stealing and burying safety goggles? Deliberately squirting pipettes in people's eyes? Of course pracs can't continue. What choice does she have?

Exactly. This is potentially dangerous behaviour. She needs to stop practicals for the safety of everyone, it’s the only responsible thing to do.

We used to have this often in science, along with class detentions. Everyone got fed up with the culprit/s and turned them so they stopped acting up.

Another teacher here who hasn't yet found my extra pair of eyes for the back of my head. When you're teaching you often can't see all the pupils all of the time, especially in a practical lesson - because you are teaching which involves discussing things with different groups, helping certain pupils, checking notes, answering questions etc.

I teach STEM in primary (which involves science) and no way on earth would I be continuing a practical lesson or planning another with that class for a while. If they can't follow safety rules then they won't be doing the practical, sometimes dangerous, activity. I gave a class this particular lecture this morning and have told them that unfortunately due to the behaviour of some then next lesson won't be practical. Yes ideally I should just exclude the children misbehaving from the activity but where do you suggest I put them? Or do you suggest I simultaneously teach a lesson in two very different ways?

It's a hard lesson to learn but sometimes real life isn't always fair and sometimes (often?) The behaviour of others impacts on our options and lives. Maybe a bit of disgruntled peers moaning at the class clowns will make them realise that their behaviour isn't acceptable?

No way would I want to be responsible for a science practical for a class like that. I completely understand-goodness knows why anyone would want to teach these days. Teachers are blamed for all of the ills of society and blamed for children’s poor behaviour.

It is not massively unkst to withhold the practical, there are satey concerns involved and they proved to.n a bunch of little knobs!
She will probably make them do less fun work for a week until they have calmed down and then star back with the practicals. If the boys are behaving how you describe it is not safe to allow them to do experiments. They have to know there will be consequences.

This type of discipline tactic was used regularly when I was in school in the 90s. If the majority or large portion of the class is acting up constantly they discipline everyone. I think they’re hoping for a divide and conquer situation where the well behaved kids will turn on the others and get them to pipe down. Also agree with PP about the safety issue of continuing if the boys are messing about to that extent.

I was really quiet and shy so barely made a peep in class but I had class detention every day for weeks due to the behaviour of a group of kids. It was frustrating but one of those things that teaches you life isn’t always fair.

One maths teacher would refuse to begin his lesson until everyone was quiet. A few boys used to keep making noises or whispering single words and we sat there for an hour learning nothing. This went on for weeks. I eventually got moved down a maths set (unsurprisingly but thankfully!).

I can just imagine your reaction if it was your son injured due to someone messing around during practical lessons.

My chemistry class was a bit like this in school, the next thing that happened after that was the curtains went up in flames because someone burned them with the Bunsen burner.
If she doesn't know who is misbehaving then it isn't safe to continue practical lessons

Sorry that should have been next time you're in a group of 30+, 2 are shouting for your help /attention, 5 are sniggering about something (possibly suspicious), 1 is crying with 2 friends comforting, the majority are getting on with a complicated activity with their backs to you as you're walking around the room, correcting any mistakes, errors, trying to challenge those "bored" or needing more stretching, trying to get 1 to focus as they struggle with ADHD and the learning support assistant isn't there as there aren't enough in the the school anyway... Oh and you've only go 14.75 minutes left to do 20 mins of what was on the lesson plan because they weren't listening at the start so you're trying to think of what's essential and what to cut out so they're not late for their next lesson.

Alternative story:

DS (13) was injured in his science class today. When questioned, he said that people keep mucking around, and although the teacher sends anyone she catches to isolation, it's become a bit of a thing amongst some of the kids to see how much they can get away with before the teacher notices and someone is kicked out. Should they be doing practicals if they can't do them safely?

DD didn't do any practicals for the second half of year 9 or the first four-fifths of year 10, and I doubt it's top priority in year 11. It's a shame when they can't do practical work, but it's not the end of the world (or someone's sight).

Doesn't sound like it was just a few kids tbh. And that is pretty bad behaviour (not so much the milk which is at least only 1 kid but the rest of it).
I'm not much of a fan of whole class punishment but in this case, it seems appropriate.

I can't really blame her. If something went seriously wrong her head would be on the chopping block. It's not fair on the well behaved children but I'm not sure what else she can do other than hope the withdrawal of practicals will persuade the other children to behave.