To be a bit hmmm about this teacher's choice of disciplining?

[GlomOfNit]

DS (13) year 9, science class. He's come home aggrieved and sad because his biology teacher has said that there will be absolutely no more science practicals in her classroom ... until either some culprits own up or their classmates snitch them in.

One of the boys (they're all boys) who apparently is a constant PITA, squirted another boy in the eyes with some milk out of a pipette. Obviously squirting someone in the eyes with anything during a science lesson isn't behaviour the school wants, and she came down like a ton of bricks and sent this boy straight to the isolation room. As he left, about a third of the rest of the class jeered, clapped etc - a big rowdy noise apparently.
One of them buried his safety specs into a fire bucket of sand (I'm imagining that may have scratched them.) She lost her temper with all this, and at the end of the class, demanded that the boys who jeered in a silly way/the one with the safety glasses own up, OR their classmates contact her to let her know which ones it was. (I mean, she was RIGHT THERE in the room!) And until she got that information there would be no more science practicals.

I'm probably being a bit perfect firstborn here (as he is) but is this not a bit unreasonable? It's unfair to punish the majority of the class for something that a few did right under her nose (so why couldn't she identify the culprits herself?), but massively unjust to withhold practical lessons (these have only just re-started after pandemic restrictions) which are part of their learning. And surely really bad practice to ask the 'goodies' to dob in the 'baddies'? Divisive and will have repercussions. Surely the onus was on her to identify the troublemakers?

To be clear, I'm supportive of the school to exact discipline and I appreciate that sometimes the entire class will suffer, but I don't think essential teaching should be withheld, and I don't think it's fair to ask the majority to act as her eyes.

I don't blame her - she probably has to put up with the shit all the time if 1/3 of the class feel it is OK to behave badly. If enough kids feel their practicals have been ruined then they need to put pressure on the culprits to own up.

I remember when I was about 13/14 my friend and I played a prank on the geography teacher (putting a chair under the door handle so he couldn't get into the classroom) when he did get in he shouted for the culprits to own up - we didn't (as he was losing the plot a bit and we were scared) so he said the whole class had to write an essay that night as punishment unless the culprits owned up. After the lesson finished, (and he had calmed down a bit) we went down to the staff room and confessed. Children are perfectly capable of doing the right thing and accepting it is not fair if everyone is punished.
The onus is on the children involved in the silliness to put the situation right - that is where you should direct your not at the teacher.

Tbh I'm surprised this has been an issue for you before because a) I'm surprised your child came home and told you about this, and b) I'm surprised you're thinking about getting involved, be it to, support or to berate the teacher, when he has told you... You don't need to do anything. Let the kids and teachers get in with it, someone will snitch or admit it and it will be fine again.

I don't think essential teaching should be withheld,
I don't think students should be in danger because of stupid behaviour. If they can't be trusted, they don't do practicals.

Posts like this make me sad for teachers and the shit they have to put up with from parents

@plumsageplum it is an issue. It should not happen. If that happens when being inspected then it's a huge red flag to ofsted that the school culture is 'rotten' and the kids are allowed to show such disrespect towards authority figures.

By the sounds of it the teacher is dealing with repeated poor behaviour, knows there's a particular group and is on to it, doing what 95% of other teachers would probably do in the same situation. Just because she's asking whom did it doesn't mean that she doesn't know and maybe wants to give them a chance to own up.

Anyway goodnight I'm off to bed.

In my physics class someone used a bunson burner to burn another kid and they were all cancelled.
Unless the children are being safe it can’t continue, squirting others in the eyes with liquid isn’t acceptable when they’ll be around chemicals.
I think it’s a good discipline.

YABVVVU. With the best will in the world, a teacher cannot be watching every single pupil at all times. All you need to do is be helping one student, checking something on their work etc and something can happen in an instant. The teacher's banning of practicals may be seen as a punishment, but really it's a necessary safety measure.

How anyone can expect kids to take responsibility for their behaviour when parents won't even support the school in situations like this is beyond me tbh.

Would it be tolerated in a workplace if people started jeering at a person who had a run in with the boss?

I don't think teens who would jeer a bit in school turn into adults who jeer in their job. Because they are different environment and they are adults then. But, yes, there are jobs where a bit more banter and yes jeering would be tolerated, depending on the relationship they had with their superior/boss.

I’m not normally a fan of whole class punishments but in this case it seems entirely fair. What shocking behaviour.

I'm with the teacher, I wouldn't be doing anything practical in a lab with that carry on.

Probably not the best idea to ask the kids to rat on each other. She could have just suspended practical classes for a few weeks til she saw better behaviour.

What would you suggest she do?

yes jeering would be tolerated, depending on the relationship they had with their superior/boss 😂

@plumsageplum we are preparing teens for the real world. I've lost count of people complaining why they're not taught about stuff that's useful. Learning respect when it is due is very useful.

there are jobs where a bit more banter and yes jeering would be tolerated, depending on the relationship they had with their superior/boss
I have a great relationship with my students but using the term "banter" dismisses the fact that this behaviour is absolutely unacceptable

I wouldn't want my child in a science practical with a number of those pupils. I'm on the side of the teacher.

Schools are trying to clamp down on banter etc, pity parents can't support them in this.

I'm a teacher and I'm not a fan of "collective punishments" at all. Eg I'm really against whole class detentions. However, in this instance I think the teacher is being very sensible...it's a safety issue. Until she knows who the culprits are she can't safely do practicals.

I also think your attitude is not supportive. Teachers cannot see everything kids do as there are about 30 kids and one of us!

I get that it's really infuriating when you, or later on your child, is involved in a class punishment when they hadn't done anything to deserve it themselves. But I have some sympathy for the teacher here. The kids' behavior wasn't just naughty, it was potentially dangerous. If they were allowed to keep it up, it would only be a matter of time before someone really got hurt. The essentials of doing practical work are to use common sense, and to listen to those in charge (the teacher in this case), and if the pupils can't, I'm afraid that they're not really ready to do this sort of practical work. It might be a good lesson for them.

They sound like a real handful & I'm not surprised she has banned practicals.

She doesn't want people to dob in class mates. She wants those who were silly to own up.

How would you feel if DS had something squirted in his eye?

So Op did your child see who did all this? If so why have you not asked them to explain to the teacher then?

Oh yes because that would be snitching and that's more important than every other child's safety and education. I'd say if he knows and your not telling him to solve the issue you are part of the problem!

Utterly pathetic - although completely unsurprising - to see the 'snitches get stitches' brigade on here. Very much of the tiresome 'The Krays only hurt their own and your gran could fearlessly collect her pension' stable. Inadequates, through and through. A class squirting things into each other's eyes, burying safety goggles for 'a laff' 🙄 and generally being boorish, are not a bunch of fundamentally good lads. They're a class where the dickheads outnumber the decent ones. I feel for her enormously.

In a science practical, a class that is jeering is a class where a sense of caution and an individual awareness of a potential dangerous environment has been lost.

That's why the jeering matters. The kids aren't in the head space they need to be in to conduct themselves safely in a lab environment.

Jeez can you imagine being a teacher?

Trying to do your best and when a few reprobates act like arseholes not only is it a PITA having to deal with them but the whiny, flaccid, enabling, NACALT parents won't even back you up when you do something perfectly reasonable like stopping practicals until the children can behave in a manner that doesn't endanger the rest of the class.

What a total bore.

@WheresMyCycle

Next time you're in a group of 30+ see if you can watch every single one at the same time.

This! I'm a teacher and it's really common for an incident to occur "right in front of your eyes" but you're trying to teach, trying to manage the behaviour of the class, manage whatever resources you're using and watch what 30 separate people are doing/saying. Sometimes that's quite hard!

This is the main reason for me leaving teaching. Twenty years and I'm out!
Sorry to hijack. As many have said...she had no choice. Safety first and foremost.
For me no more juggling 30 people and lying awake at night thinking so and so owes me an English essay, I haven't seen so and so for a while I wonder if they've left their senior course or just up the town again!

Throw endless meetings, target settings and unrealistic expectations into the mix, meetings about why students failed (they didn't listen, would not attempt course work or- you've guessed it, were up the town...)
I attended an average school in the 80s. The standards of behaviour in an average school is generally much worse now.
I'm sure you'll understand when I say...I'm done!
I bet this teacher is going to gauge as and when practicals can resume. She has my sympathy.

@WheresMyCycle, Sorry if I wasn't very clear but I was reiterating your point.
The first pile of shite part I copied needed your "this is why we're in a mess" remark too.
(Hope that makes sense).

Learning respect when it is due is very useful.

Maybe some kids struggle with the difference between school and employment, but I'd say most wouldn't. You assume because disrespect is shown in one area that means it is shown in all, and that's not true.

As for jobs, I've been on building sites where yes, if someone was reprimanded, a bit of jeering would not be the end of the world. Granted, that's not all jobs, but the work place culture is not the same everywhere.

Some kids disrespect some teachers while respecting others. Respect one parent and disrespect another. I just don't think it's the case that because they jeered this means they are going to start jeering in their office job... They won't have their friends there so it will be a different thing altogether.

I've seen some quite badly behaved children during GCSEs because they are forced to do subjects they don't like, yet those same kids aren't disrespecting their college tutors.