To be a bit hmmm about this teacher's choice of disciplining?

[GlomOfNit]

DS (13) year 9, science class. He's come home aggrieved and sad because his biology teacher has said that there will be absolutely no more science practicals in her classroom ... until either some culprits own up or their classmates snitch them in.

One of the boys (they're all boys) who apparently is a constant PITA, squirted another boy in the eyes with some milk out of a pipette. Obviously squirting someone in the eyes with anything during a science lesson isn't behaviour the school wants, and she came down like a ton of bricks and sent this boy straight to the isolation room. As he left, about a third of the rest of the class jeered, clapped etc - a big rowdy noise apparently.
One of them buried his safety specs into a fire bucket of sand (I'm imagining that may have scratched them.) She lost her temper with all this, and at the end of the class, demanded that the boys who jeered in a silly way/the one with the safety glasses own up, OR their classmates contact her to let her know which ones it was. (I mean, she was RIGHT THERE in the room!) And until she got that information there would be no more science practicals.

I'm probably being a bit perfect firstborn here (as he is) but is this not a bit unreasonable? It's unfair to punish the majority of the class for something that a few did right under her nose (so why couldn't she identify the culprits herself?), but massively unjust to withhold practical lessons (these have only just re-started after pandemic restrictions) which are part of their learning. And surely really bad practice to ask the 'goodies' to dob in the 'baddies'? Divisive and will have repercussions. Surely the onus was on her to identify the troublemakers?

To be clear, I'm supportive of the school to exact discipline and I appreciate that sometimes the entire class will suffer, but I don't think essential teaching should be withheld, and I don't think it's fair to ask the majority to act as her eyes.

People have absolutely no idea the state of behaviour in U.K. schools at the moment. It’s horrific and getting worse.

Absolutely. I think most parents would be horrified if they were a fly on the wall tbh. They don't seem to understand that just 'controlling a class' isn't always possible. Increasing numbers of kids just do what they like and don't care about the consequences, don't turn up for detentions, parents support them by letting them stay off school rather than face the consequences. They don't care if they are excluded from class. In fact some misbehave deliberately in order to get kicked out of lessons. Expelling them is very hard to do and they often get back in on appeal or are just passed on to the next school where they behave just the same. There is very little that class teachers can do with kids like that.

I'm team teacher all the way.

People have absolutely no idea the state of behaviour in U.K. schools at the moment. It’s horrific and getting worse. The worst behaved pupils when I was at school was nothing compared to the standard now
This. We have staff come from Europe every year, just for one year, and they are more and more horrified by standard behaviour in our schools.

@Morgoth - that sounds horrific. The disruptors are also being disrespectful to the other kids in the class - who might actually want to learn something.

@toomuchlaundry - yes, I’m from a country where in general the kids behave better in class because the parents are stricter.

People have absolutely no idea the state of behaviour in U.K. schools at the moment. It’s horrific and getting worse.

I trained 20 yrs ago in a deprived area of a large English city. Back then we had knife fights in school, fireworks being thrown down stairwells, a parent was shot in the playground one time, and every time I told myself they were freak incidents. We, the adults, are responsible for what young people see as right and wrong and we need to work together.

@lazylinguist
Totally agree. Well done to teachers on here for their honesty. We are definitely struggling in UK to reach basic acceptable levels of behaviour in schools.

Sorry - I committed the unforgivable MN crime of posting an AIBU and then promptly buggered off (RL happened)! I'm not a regular AIBU poster and didn't really appreciate the traffic that even boring OPs like this one might get. So apologies for that, I know it's a PITA when people do this.

I can see my gut reaction to this was indeed unreasonable and that was sort of why I posted. I absolutely agree that if you have a little sod squirting things then that little sod needs removing (he was) though I'm less convinced that some of the other little charmers jeering makes it an unsafe environment ... but obviously when you're dealing with lab equipment you need control and discipline.

DS says his teacher was looking into the classroom right at the students when some of them started in with the rowdiness but again, I do appreciate that the teacher wasn't able to immediately work out exactly which were doing it. I do think my point about being a bit that she's expecting the well-behaved ones to tell her which ones were mucking around still stands.

I admit I was shocked when DS told me about the rowdiness. It's actually a pretty good school in terms of discipline and doesn't have a reputation for bad behaviour. Fairly sure he's never told me this sort of thing has happened before in one of his classes.

@Morgoth
How awful with the water situation. Yip, having taught busy classes can see how this could've happened.
For me senior pupils who had to stay on til Xmas but didn't want ti be there were the worst. To see a grown lad actively look for ways to disrupt such as initiating an argument or deliberately burst a pen all over the place to avoid attempting work was soul destroying.

@user1471530109

OP, everyone here has already said it. But I'm HOD of science and been a science teacher for 18 years. Your DS teacher is absolutely right. I often say to my classes that my priority is their safety. If they mess about, practical gets cancelled. What will probably happen is the class will do theory for a week then she will introduce practical with a strong message of final chance.

I appreciate your ds wasn't involved (you do know they all say that?) but it's her career on the line if one gets acid in their eye or another gets their hair/blazer burnt and injured. Back the teacher up. If all the parents do, the boys will hopefully leave a lot quicker how to respect the privilege of doing an experiment.

Thanks for your insight, I appreciate it. My first reaction when he said someone had squirted milk into someone else's EYE (I think they were checking starch content so I bloody well hope they hadn't already added the iodine, if it's what I remember from my own biology GCSE) was SHIT, that could have been so much worse. Believe me, I was very quick to point this out to DS, who fully understands.

I really hope you're right, that the little sods wise up and realise that nobody will be having the more interesting practicals unless they behave.

(I know I would say this wouldn't I, but I have pretty much every certainty in the world that DS wasn't involved! He's very much a rule-keeper, very academic and extremely scathing about the idiots who piss about in class.)

@Morgoth

I’m a science teacher at a leafy middle-class just above average state school and across the science department, we have taken the decision to ban practicals for two year groups for the next six months. Within the first three weeks of school we had beakers of acid smashed because students were play fighting around them, we’ve had students chasing each other around the room with knives, we’ve had students try to lick live electrical cables for a laugh and in my last practical lesson with my bottom year 9 set (the final straw which caused the school to do an outright ban) was students putting nails and iron filings into my water bottle on my desk when my back was turned during a magnetism practical as I was helping another group of students.

People have absolutely no idea the state of behaviour in U.K. schools at the moment. It’s horrific and getting worse. The worst behaved pupils when I was at school was nothing compared to the standard now. Even the top-sets are not absent of horrific behaviour. We’ve had teachers that were former soldiers or marines who have fought in war zones quit on the spot because the behaviour is out of control. Retention is getting worse and worse each year.

Bloody hell. I'm so, so sorry you've had to put up with this, Morgoth. TBH I was shocked that DS thought it might have been a third of the class jeering like that (to be fair he's not always a brilliant judge of quantities) because nothing he's ever told me in the 2 and a bit years he's been at this (very good) school has made me think that classroom discipline was that poor. This is the fecking TOP science set too, I'd have liked to think they'd be a bit more committed to actually learning.

I don't blame her. Sounds like that class is a nightmare.

I hear of "outstanding" schools that hardly ever do any practicals.

Unfortunate because they're such a useful learning tool, even when they don't quite go to plan (but not in a shit show way). Back in them there 90s, I had a "bottom set" class that I got off on a very poor footing with, not helped by timetabling guy shoving us in a prefab with no lab facilities and no bloody learning support. I managed to get us moved into the shit but at least with gas and water lab that no full sized class fitted in and somehow, by the end of the year, we all had a great (if noisy) time and they were (mostly) engaged in learning what they could grasp. (backfired because I also got great Sats out of a difficult middle year 9 group and ended up with a timetable full of this, the next year.)

As a science teacher myself I have a zero tolerance policy for any messing around.
If I think I can’t keep every pupil in the class safe then I won’t do practicals - it’s just not worth the risk.

The chemicals we use can burn or irritate the skin. If there was even a small residue of any in that pipette it could have caused long term sight issues.

Obviously if it’s just one student you could remove them from the class but it sounds like the rest of the class joined in too.

As a parent I’d rather be told my child isn’t doing practicals as it’s an unsafe environment, than her do them and risk getting seriously injured.

@Mrshook

I would say it is too dangerous to do a practical with that class.

Exactly this! They need a good discipline! They should indeed own up and start behaving. A class that goes rogue when the teacher leaves is wrong. A class that does this after witnessing a serious incident like milk being squirted in the eyes of a pupil have something seriously wrong with them! They surely knew that things were bad enough to stop at that point.

@RobotValkyrie

Hopefully OP, you'll have taught your own son that the morally correct (and courageous) action in such situation is for any witness to share relevant information about a crime (antisocial behaviour, vandalism) with the authorities (the teacher)... Right?

... Or are you more of the "boys will be boys" and "snitches get stitches" school of thought?

yawwwn ... no, I'm really, really NOT one of the 'boys will be boys' camp, thanks. It's a boys' school and the ethos there is meant to be the very opposite of 'all boys are alike'/'boys will be boys' - and even if that weren't the case, I'm very much NOT someone who makes excuses for bad behaviour because of an individual's biological sex. If I didn't make it clear in my OP, I think their behaviour absolutely sucked and I'm shocked about it.

I WILL confess to being slightly concerned for DS, because he's already ended up being bullied by a couple of little thugs who didn't appreciate it when their antics in class (last year, not practicals!) were called out by him. He's someone to whom bullies gravitate like bees to a honeypot (I should know, this was my experience at school too) but he's also a rule-keeper and hates others mucking around.

We obviously talked about how to proceed here, and he wants to let the teacher know who he thinks was involved. I would like him to do that but I'd also like him to do this anonymously because I know how bullying can blight your school life. Is that ok by you, RobotValkyrie, or not up to your moral standards?

@GlomOfNit I want to say yes rat the buggers out in front of everyone but alas I'm a mum and I wouldn't want my boy in the firing line when he already, in the nicest sense may have a tiny target already on his head with school bullies

I don't think really it's up to him to make himself public enemy number one so anonymous is perfectly ok I would be tempted to say nothing but then I went to a school where bullies were violent so my judgement is clouded, I suspect this was more teacher hoping the boys messing around would come forward less be ratted out tbh.

Honestly just want to say to the teachers in here I really appreciate you, god knows how you do it and my former chatty emotional teenage self thanks you. Even if I did get bollocked for being a natter box in class regularly.

[quote candlelightsatdawn]@GlomOfNit I want to say yes rat the buggers out in front of everyone but alas I'm a mum and I wouldn't want my boy in the firing line when he already, in the nicest sense may have a tiny target already on his head with school bullies

I don't think really it's up to him to make himself public enemy number one so anonymous is perfectly ok I would be tempted to say nothing but then I went to a school where bullies were violent so my judgement is clouded, I suspect this was more teacher hoping the boys messing around would come forward less be ratted out tbh.

Honestly just want to say to the teachers in here I really appreciate you, god knows how you do it and my former chatty emotional teenage self thanks you. Even if I did get bollocked for being a natter box in class regularly. [/quote]
thanks Candlelights, compassionate post all round. If there's a way he can do that anonymously then he will. I agree that the teacher is probably hoping the rats will self-rat rather than be reported by the others (hope so too). And yes, I'm very sobered by some of the stories on here from teachers.

I can see I posted out of line here but I think I'm fairly well-roasted now so perhaps some of you can lay off a bit?

@Morgoth

I’m a science teacher at a leafy middle-class just above average state school and across the science department, we have taken the decision to ban practicals for two year groups for the next six months. Within the first three weeks of school we had beakers of acid smashed because students were play fighting around them, we’ve had students chasing each other around the room with knives, we’ve had students try to lick live electrical cables for a laugh and in my last practical lesson with my bottom year 9 set (the final straw which caused the school to do an outright ban) was students putting nails and iron filings into my water bottle on my desk when my back was turned during a magnetism practical as I was helping another group of students.

People have absolutely no idea the state of behaviour in U.K. schools at the moment. It’s horrific and getting worse. The worst behaved pupils when I was at school was nothing compared to the standard now. Even the top-sets are not absent of horrific behaviour. We’ve had teachers that were former soldiers or marines who have fought in war zones quit on the spot because the behaviour is out of control. Retention is getting worse and worse each year.

My question here is - what are the causes? Is it parents are less involved with their kids than before. Is it that schools can no longer discipline as they did in the past. I remember in my days a letter from the head to home for someone would be all that was needed for a kid to stop anything because the next step was expulsion.

I think in 5 years at high school we had 2 suspended students for 'the rest of the week' - plenty of banter with some teachers - none with others but we knew our place and respected (most) teachers and tolerated the rest.

Causes:

• fear of parents challenging everything. Everyone thinks that because they had a teacher, they're qualified to comment.
• leadership fear of suspensions, because they make you look like your behaviour policy isn't working
• overworked teachers who don't have the time to follow up discipline issues.
• same with heads of year.
• culture of entitlement amongst society.
• leadership has become an invisible administrative role, rather than being out and about in the corridors, leading a culture of standards and visibility.
• staff turnover.
• unhelpful behaviour rhetoric, often from leadership: "if lessons were more engaging, he/she would behave"; "he responds better to male teachers"; "he/she always behaves for me".

Every teacher I know is in the same boat: overworked, frustrated and ground down. Best friend was in tears the other day: she asked a misbehaving student to leave her lesson. Student did, but swore repeatedly at her. Mother rang up and shouted at her, complaining that best friend had "provoked" and "humiliated" her child. Student subsequently received a lunchtime detention. FFS.

She can't guarantee safety so the practical lessons stop.

I totally agree with her. The class need to know it has a no tolerance to dangerous behaviour before some one gets acid squirted in their face.

I understand the frustration, OP. My 13yo ds is a rule-abiding kid and small for his age, surrounded by a depressing number of rowdy, difficult kids, many a lot bigger than him and quite intimidating.

He and dd go to the school where dh and I work. It is frustrating to see daily how hard it is to do much about bad behaviour, how much time it wastes in lessons and how much impact it has on staff and kids. And this is a good-rated school in a decent area.

Welcome to the reality of many, many lessons in UK schools in 2021.

Whilst not every lesson is like this, many are - and it is a growing problem. I do hope lots of parents read this thread and then seriously think about what is happening on our schools. Talk to your own children. As them about behaviour in their lessons. They will have similar stories to tell.

Please don't blame the teacher heere. What on earth are you supposed to do when you have 30 students in the room - a fair proportion of whom who are hell bent on disrupting the lesson. Chances are the teacher is in a school operating the current trend for assertive discipline and restorative conversations. The teacher will be wasting her time now having to have little chats with each and every student who has misbehaved. SLT are probably sitting back and doing sfa because they have this great behaviour policy that removes them from the system. Then bear in mind that this is only ONE lesson out of the day - lets just hope this poor teacher had better classes for the rest of the week.

On top of all this she has a parent complaining that she is not allowing practical work in a clearly unsafe environments. Maybe she is going to get an email or phone call complaining about her. Just what she needs after dealing with this lesson. Can you imagine how stressful and upsetting it was for hr to be in the middle of that chaos?

This is why I left teaching after 30 years. It's why thousands of other teachers do the same each year. It is why there is a recruitment crisis - especially in STEM subjects.

I've seen some quite badly behaved children during GCSEs because they are forced to do subjects they don't like, yet those same kids aren't disrespecting their college tutors

@plumsageplum. And this is alright then in these circumstances? FFS

Let's all just do it the stuff we like for the the rest of our lives... I'll start with no marking 😂

@Doona

Safety first. If they can't manage the basics of safe behaviour then yeah sadly they can't have science pracs. The dobbing things is probably misjudged but they sound like ratbags.

I agree, it's not so much a punishment as a sensible decision not to have practical lessons with a class who can't behave in a sensible and safe manner.

That is truly appalling behaviour. She is responsible for safe working in the lab. And, to be frank, those children don't sound as though they could behave safely in a padded room. Unfortunately children not being able to understand risk from spending all of their time in safe environments means there are so many that cannot understand genuine risk.