To be a bit hmmm about this teacher's choice of disciplining?

[GlomOfNit]

DS (13) year 9, science class. He's come home aggrieved and sad because his biology teacher has said that there will be absolutely no more science practicals in her classroom ... until either some culprits own up or their classmates snitch them in.

One of the boys (they're all boys) who apparently is a constant PITA, squirted another boy in the eyes with some milk out of a pipette. Obviously squirting someone in the eyes with anything during a science lesson isn't behaviour the school wants, and she came down like a ton of bricks and sent this boy straight to the isolation room. As he left, about a third of the rest of the class jeered, clapped etc - a big rowdy noise apparently.
One of them buried his safety specs into a fire bucket of sand (I'm imagining that may have scratched them.) She lost her temper with all this, and at the end of the class, demanded that the boys who jeered in a silly way/the one with the safety glasses own up, OR their classmates contact her to let her know which ones it was. (I mean, she was RIGHT THERE in the room!) And until she got that information there would be no more science practicals.

I'm probably being a bit perfect firstborn here (as he is) but is this not a bit unreasonable? It's unfair to punish the majority of the class for something that a few did right under her nose (so why couldn't she identify the culprits herself?), but massively unjust to withhold practical lessons (these have only just re-started after pandemic restrictions) which are part of their learning. And surely really bad practice to ask the 'goodies' to dob in the 'baddies'? Divisive and will have repercussions. Surely the onus was on her to identify the troublemakers?

To be clear, I'm supportive of the school to exact discipline and I appreciate that sometimes the entire class will suffer, but I don't think essential teaching should be withheld, and I don't think it's fair to ask the majority to act as her eyes.

@RexMyDarling
You do know that teachers have only the standard one pair of eyes, yes?

Hold on a moment!
When I first started primary school I distinctly remember the teacher telling us that they were different, in that teachers also had eyes in the back of their head and could see what we were doing when they had their back turned and were writing on the blackboard. She went on to ruffle her hair and say you can't see them because my hair covers them, but they are there.

Do teachers really only have only the standard one pair of eyes?

Is this another lie that has been perpetuated through our lives?
Does Father Christmas not exist either?
and what about the Tooth Fairy?
Do guineas pig's eyes not fall out if you pull it's tail?
Did Boris not pledge to fund the Leeds to Manchester HS2 route?

@Capferret

The teacher doesn’t seem to be able to control the class. 13 year olds shouldn’t be jeering etc when another dc is disciplined. I would be more concerned about the lack of control in a science lab tbh.

Oh, right-it must be the teacher’s fault! Is anything the fault of those students?

What would YOU suggest she did?

I voted in the minority that yanbu, and actually the teacher is not BU either. Of course she can't do practicals when behaviour is out of control. But the answer is not to stop practicals for everyone! That is just complete shit for those kids who didn't misbehave. Collective punishment is wrong.

My dd, year 8, loves science. She wants a career in science. She is not a perfect PFB, but would never misbehave in a science lesson. However, there are quite a few whose behaviour is out of control and dd's teacher has changed all practicals to being only done by the teacher whilst the students watch. DD half the time can't see the practical or hear all of what the teacher is saying because there is still lots of bad behaviour. I appreciate DD is safer this way, but she is missing out on so much. It's shit. Why is there so much bad behaviour in so many schools and what will become of those kids who can't follow any rules when they are adults?

‘The boys jeered in a silly way’

You are minimising their behaviour and I doubt you would think it was ‘silly’ if you were alone in a room of 14 yo boys doing the same to you.

OP just read your updates - I was referring to your first post.

@purpletanzanite

Causes:

• fear of parents challenging everything. Everyone thinks that because they had a teacher, they're qualified to comment.
• leadership fear of suspensions, because they make you look like your behaviour policy isn't working
• overworked teachers who don't have the time to follow up discipline issues.
• same with heads of year.
• culture of entitlement amongst society.
• leadership has become an invisible administrative role, rather than being out and about in the corridors, leading a culture of standards and visibility.
• staff turnover.
• unhelpful behaviour rhetoric, often from leadership: "if lessons were more engaging, he/she would behave"; "he responds better to male teachers"; "he/she always behaves for me".

Every teacher I know is in the same boat: overworked, frustrated and ground down. Best friend was in tears the other day: she asked a misbehaving student to leave her lesson. Student did, but swore repeatedly at her. Mother rang up and shouted at her, complaining that best friend had "provoked" and "humiliated" her child. Student subsequently received a lunchtime detention. FFS.

Great post.

"But the answer is not to stop practicals for everyone! That is just complete shit for those kids who didn't misbehave"

What is the answer though?

But the answer is not to stop practicals for everyone! That is just complete shit for those kids who didn't misbehave

What is the answer though?

Exactly. If anyone has an answer to this kind of situation which would actually work and be agreed to by senior management and tolerated by parents, I'm all ears.

I guess one solution could be a zero tolerance policy across the school - like a strict school (but would only work for some kids). Or - do practicals as an after school/break time club for kids who want to be there and behave? The latter incurs additional time teaching - so may not be possible with current funding.

I teach in what was a nice school with generally high levels of good behaviour, this is in comparison to other schools I have taught in in my career.

Lockdowns have had a massive impact on behaviour - not sure why but behaviour is taking up so much time on a day to day basis.

Possible reasons

• boundaries at home have slipped due to 24/7 lockdowns, I know personally I tactically ignored some of my own childrens behaviour in lockdown to save my sanity!
• out of practice of being in a school environment - they have forgotton the basic rules of society - I am reminding so many about not just calling out, wanting full attention constantly at the click of a finger, how to communicate with each other and staff. I am talking about not answering back, not talking over each other, blatently rudeness - just general manners.
• masking lack of understanding due to miss learning
• parents will not accept their darling is ever to blame, constant emails to challenge you.

Re the asking others to tell them, been used for years - in my first year of teaching a student wrote on my t shirt whilst I was helping another student. 5 students in my lesson when asked named and shamed - the student in question admitted it when confronted so never knew others had named her.

The threat of no practicals may make those who are guilty own up, and change behaviour, or those who are not guilty be few up enough to provide some info.

@Namenic

I guess one solution could be a zero tolerance policy across the school - like a strict school (but would only work for some kids). Or - do practicals as an after school/break time club for kids who want to be there and behave? The latter incurs additional time teaching - so may not be possible with current funding.

Why should the teacher have to give up their (very limited) personal time to do practicals because some kids can't behave, when they have already used class time to demonstrate?

When I worked in a school, break and lunch were usually taken up by a quick run to the loo and then either clearing up from previous lessons or prep for the next lessons and inhaling a sandwich at lunchtime. Not to mention the extra curricular clubs/GCSE revision/support clubs that the teachers were already supporting and the very occasional lunchtime when a teacher had no class, no supervisory duties and no department meetings they had the luxury of having a whole 20 minutes to respond to all the emails from teachers complaining that their PFB was hard done by because they were an exception to the rules.

I agree with the teacher. She can't see everyone all the time and kids should take responsibility and can say who did it. We would tell the police about a burglary or vandalism so kids should learn to have the confidence to tell the teacher who the trouble maker is. Can be done in private

If they can't behave with safe things, how can they behave when gas or chemicals are used.... safety first. Teacher is being sensible

I guess one solution could be a zero tolerance policy across the school - like a strict school.

What does that actually mean though, in practical terms? How do you implement zero tolerance? What sanctions actually achieve that? How do you make them turn up for detentions? What can you do if they don't?

Schools have plenty of rules, lots of clear, sensible expectations of behaviour, home-school agreements, sanction policies etc
The problem is they don't work, because how do you actually make kids stick to them? Schools literally aren't allowed to just chuck kids out unless they have a massive long list of offences and can prove they've jumped through every conceivable hoop to support the student in improving their behaviour.

Oh and no - teachers cannot be expected to do extra hours providibg something that should be done in lesson time but isn't done because of the poor behaviour of students.

I'm with previous posters. Absolutely no idea why anyone would sign up for this job. Some parents should thank their lucky stars we have any teachers at all in this country!

@plumsageplum

She is wants people to snitch on people who were jeering..? I wouldn't be snitching on anyone.

You aren’t the only one using this ‘grass’ and ‘snitch’ terminology but it’s a bit sad seeing it from adults. Jesus, the concept of telling someone in authority when someone does something wrong shouldn’t be seen in this juvenile way. This sort of attitude is why we have the corrupt mob of a government at the moment. Grow up. Be a part of an adult society.

@lazylinguist - aren’t there schools like michaela where they are v strict? I mean - it’s not suitable for every kid, but given a choice of the appalling behaviour described, I would probably prefer a school like that.

The class can’t be trusted with practicals so they won’t be doing practicals. I think she’s done the right thing.

It's jeering. Annoying, immature and unhelpful but it's not a biggie if it quietness down quickly. How many times have you been in a canteen or pub and grown adults shout "wayhey!!!" when a glass or plate is dropped. That is what I'm imagining here.

The jeering encourages the "class clown" but if adults can't help but "way hey" then I see why kids might blurt out similar

I’m a science teacher and I’ve done this before (for a few lessons, then restarted with an easy practical when I had the year manager in the room and had contacted a few parents). If they can’t be safe, they can’t do practical work.

It’s shit for the kids - I currently have a Year 7 class where bad behaviour is so rife that I haven’t done the standard Bunsen burners with them and while I am doing some practical work I’m having to think carefully about the chemicals I can let them use, my Head of Department agrees it’s not safe at the moment due to the class dynamic and high level of need. It’s incredibly unfair for the well behaved ones, but equally I am not going to risk it, have a serious accident and lose my job!!

@lazylinguist - aren’t there schools like michaela where they are v strict? I mean - it’s not suitable for every kid, but given a choice of the appalling behaviour described, I would probably prefer a school like that.

I think Michaela is a one-off. And, given that kids are punished there for slouching, looking out of the window once during a lesson, or taking more than 10 seconds to get your book out of their bag, I'm not surprised there aren't more schools like it.

Schools need more power to enforce the perfectly sensible rules they already have, not the freedom to make stupidly draconian ones. Wrt Michaela, I assume that the only reason their system works is that any parent who deliberately chooses to send their child there has willingly signed up to the draconian system of the 'strictest school in Britain', so support from parents will be pretty much guaranteed, and I expect that parents are heavily encouraged to take their child elsewhere if it turns out they don't like the system after all.

If you tried making rules like that at normal schools, kids and parents wouldn't follow them, just like they already don't follow the rules at normal schools. Michaela has no additional powers to force kids to do as they're told. It just has parents (and possibly kids) who have signed up for that.

The bottom line is, how do you force kids to behave, or parents to support the school? Answer: you can't.

I recall troublemakers being excluded from class with in school detention.

When mine were in school, any fighting was an automatic arrest by the police.

Quite different from when I was in school and fights broken up and parents called.

In uni, older students would tell guys to stfu as they weren't paying all this money to listen to them.

@lazylinguist

The bottom line is, how do you force kids to behave, or parents to support the school? Answer: you can't.

And yet some schools have very few problems with behaviour. So clearly you can. It doesnt just divide bw leafy suburban comp and rough inner city ones either

@lazylinguist

The bottom line is, how do you force kids to behave, or parents to support the school? Answer: you can't.

I do wonder how much parents play a role in this.

There are are often complaints about uniforms but I do think even if the rules seem daft they should stuck to.

If it desn't matter to abide by uniform ploicy, what else doesn't matter?

I remember getting sent out of assembly because my top button was undone behind my tie.

Draconian?

Maybe-but you knew that there was no point in messing about!

Also no point in telling my parents-they would only have told me that I wasn't dressed properly & fair enough!