to be alarmed by vaccine passports

[Loustew12]

Am I the only person who find the proposed extension of this alarming, given what's happening in Austria, where police are out checking the unvaccinated are hiding among the vaccinated? Gibraltar has 100% vaccination rate and cases are through the roof. So clearly being vaccinated doesn't 'stop the spread'. Therefore, there is no logical or justification for segregating society. It's surely a slippery slope to go down?

[quote Scoobapro]@PAFMO where is the lie?

Our restrictions have been lifted due to the vaccine introduction, so why is it wrong to assume that that was the ‘road to freedom’?

So there isn’t talk of boosters? There’s no talk of vaccine passports?

Struggling to see what I am supposedly fabricating here.[/quote]
You said that they said:
"Once the vaccine came out that would be it"
"They" never said that.
You said that they said:
"Now we need boosters" (ok, I'll give you this one as a misinterpretation, but how did people think they wouldn't? You need boosters for childhood immunization, you need tetanus boosters, etc)
You said that they said
"We need vaccine passports"
Who has said that? Who?

I am fully vaccinated and strongly disagree with this.

I don't believe the state should have any power over who I mingle with and where. I don't believe the state should have the power to exclude people from society based on their decision. And I dont have a problem with unvaccinated people. I dont see them as a greater threat to me and I don't worry about them putting themselves in danger

@Europilgrim

We don’t have measles vaccination passports, HIV negative passports, STI free passports All of those are either not easily transmissible just by being in the same room or fairly rare because most people are vaccinated. Pretty poor example!

Where I live we have vaccine passports and most people are in favour because we have had enough of this now! I'm in favour.

Lol maybe nightclubs could use STI passports 😂🙃

Don't really care but don't see the point.

You said that they said
"Once the vaccine came out that would be it"
"They" never said that

It’s true they never said that. People just naively hoped it would end if they got the double shot.

Hopefully they will not make this mistake again when it comes to boosters.

As someone enduring day 6 of so-called mild Covid, caught when a friend came to stay the night. Arrived feeling unwell and only when questioned revealed she was unvaccinated. Tested positive that night. I tested positive 3 days later.

I am immunosuppressed . She knows this. 'But forgot'. Big discussion about why no vax... apparently it's against her human rights. Fuck that. !!! What about MY right to life ?

I can honestly say that I feel absolutely not one jot of guilt in wanting Vaccine passports.

I am terrified. It is a hugely debilitating disease, even in it mildest form. I am attached to an oxygen meter..it's 94. at 92 I have to be admitted.

I am so angry at people Who feel their 'right' is not to do all in their power to reduce the spread of this disease . As their 'right' affects MY LIFE !!

I have had to produce a vaccination certificate (long before Covid) to enter another country. I don't find this unusual. If you go onto any social media page you can find out all you need to know about anyone. People put their whole lives on Facebook etc and no one is out protesting about that. If the government want to track me - fine. They will be bored within days. I have been to a country that has much, MUCH more control over it's citizens than here. Here is not the worst by a long chalk.

@UsedUpUsername

You said that they said "Once the vaccine came out that would be it" "They" never said that

It’s true they never said that. People just naively hoped it would end if they got the double shot.

Hopefully they will not make this mistake again when it comes to boosters.

It was never going to 'end', it's an endemic virus, but everything has been pretty much open since July. You'd have certainly taken that in Jan-March when most things were still shut and most people hadn't had a vaccine.

Without vaccines we wouldn't have had 4+ months of relative normality from July (and things were opening up before then).

The only time this argument carried any weight at all is if it comes from someone without an actual passport (given how many checks are enrolled with that ) , doesn't own a mobile phone, doesn't have a driving licence , didn't go to school in the myriad of countries that requires vaccinations in childhood to enrol, doesn't have an alexa etc, disables all cookies on their computer.

I am going to make a reasonably safe bet that at least one of those is the case. We have to confirm everything all the time, we have restrictions based on us all the time on who can do what. Its a silly vapid argument made by those who don't like the vaccine in order to find some basis in their response. The basis isn't there.

We share information all the damn time this is a stupid argument. We are restricted from movement all the sodding time fir a variety of reasons. Find a more justified argument , this one is ridiculous

@MysteryFog60

I have had to produce a vaccination certificate (long before Covid) to enter another country. I don't find this unusual. If you go onto any social media page you can find out all you need to know about anyone. People put their whole lives on Facebook etc and no one is out protesting about that. If the government want to track me - fine. They will be bored within days. I have been to a country that has much, MUCH more control over it's citizens than here. Here is not the worst by a long chalk.

This hasn’t been the case for decades outside certain African countries.

@Loustew12

Why are you straying yet another thread when there are millions already

Post on one of those

Just get vaccinated.

We have vaccine passports where I live. I scan a code at the door of a shop for track and trace. Most times especially in small shops (department stores have security guards checking) no one checks to see my vaccination certificate or that I have checked in at all. It relies on staff members to do so. I could have a screen shot of someone else’s cert if I wanted, they don’t check ID. If they’re not bothering now I can’t see it lasting long to be honest. I am double vaccinated, not against them and it bothers me not one bit checking in but I can’t really see how useful they are.
However, DH works with 55 others in a shift, 19 which were unvaccinated (she’ll be right attitude ) until employer said no work next week until first vaccine. All of 19 then got vaccinated.

I'm not sure if they're that helpful, but I don't think they're a 'slippery slope' either as they are for a very specific thing and I don't think that accepting them means people will accept other 'curbs on their freedom', eg if the government were to say next year 'We're introducing ID for British Muslims', people as a whole wouldn't got 'Sure, we had COVID passports, that's just fine' - other than the kind of people who would think IDs for Muslim people are a great idea who, ironically, are more likely to be the ones who opposed COVID passports (NB OP sure you're not, not a call out, but for many people there will be a correlation)

[quote fungussingstheblues]@gamerchick you can't catch fat from someone, no, but if you're over 30 you're more likely to catch and transmit Covid if you are vaccinated - so what's the point of the passports? To encourage a greater uptake of the vaccine that will make you more likely to catch and transmit Covid if you're over 30?

www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports[/quote]
This is misinformation.

The data you quoted have very specific caveats that it cannot be used to determine vaccine effectiveness for a wide range of reasons.

The greatest of these is that the NIMS database vastly overinflates population numbers in the under 70s - an effect that gets greater for younger age groups - with the effect that the number of unvaccinated people appears much higher than is in fact the case in the NIMS database.

There are also other potential confounding factors, as the actual surveillance report points out.

As the statistics watchdog has already publicly reprimanded UKHSA for the way they present this data as it is so open to be misused like this, I’m surprised anyone is even trying to stand this up.

The data is very clear that vaccines reduce the risk of transmission significantly.

With delta and waning, a double dose of AZ drops a little below 50% protection. All other full vaccine courses prevent the majority of infections. So that’s already halving transmission.

And boosters are bloody magnificent. They take protection way beyond even the early days of a double dose of Pfizer. A booster dose will cut your chance of being infected by 7x-9x versus being double vaccinated.

(Graph is from the ONS today.)

Well not driving massively decreases death rates but the solution isnt to ban cars as that would be ridiculous because people rely on them.

Being vaccinated massively decreases death rates but the solution isnt to ban access to society for people as they rely on it.

I dont see the difference.

"Not vaccinated" is quite a different group to the others. The majority of "not vaccinated" in this country are under 18... And a 60 year old at random is 10 times less likely to be infected than a 15 year old one?

And remember there's huge confounding facts on "boosters" the people most likely to get their booster, are individuals most likely to also take other mitigations (and while masks don't do much, staying at home sure does) the data you're quoting is not RCT's it's surveillance, and that is always made difficult with confounding factors.

That's not to say it's wrong, but you cannot be so dogmatic about the conclusions. The conclusions from similar reports in March, would not have had the boosters being required now...

@JollyJoon

Well not driving massively decreases death rates but the solution isnt to ban cars as that would be ridiculous because people rely on them.

Being vaccinated massively decreases death rates but the solution isnt to ban access to society for people as they rely on it.

I dont see the difference.

We do have restrictions on how you can use your car to reduce the death rate - speed limits, seatbelts, blood alcohol limits, traffic measures, roads that are one way, or only open to certain kinds of traffic, or have time of day restrictions.

But the quantum of deaths is also quite different - around 1700 road deaths in the UK in a normal year, versus more than 140k in less than two years with Covid.

So driving couldn’t save more than 2000 lives a year, even if it stopped entirely. Vaccines have prevented around 127,000 deaths up to the end of September, according to UKHSA and the University of Cambridge.

And remember there's huge confounding facts on "boosters" the people most likely to get their booster, are individuals most likely to also take other mitigations (and while masks don't do much, staying at home sure does) the data you're quoting is not RCT's it's surveillance, and that is always made difficult with confounding factors.

The ONS adjusts for core demographic variables like those you suggest, though of course not for the confounding factors - though their reports do also look at a number of those factors so you are able to see the individual impact of those confounding factors.

The top value of the ONS is as a time series.

It’s funny, isn’t it.

When you quote trial data, it’s criticised for not being in the real world (Pfizer trials showed relative efficacy of a booster dose at 95.6% compared to two doses.)

When you quote surveillance data, it can’t be trusted as it’s not an RCT.

When they align, people look for other reasons the data couldn’t possibly be right.

I've just come back from holiday and while there I met an elderly man who walked with a stick. He told me he contracted polio when he was 5 years old and had walked with a stick ever since. He also told me he couldn't read, as he had missed years of schooling as a child due to illness.

Vaccines have changed our lives. I cannot understand people who refuse to accept that and make some of the small sacrifices required to get normal life back.

You're right, you should be alarmed.

@SamosaSammy
exactly, where does it stop? once the freedom passports are implemented we won't be allowed to work, travel, vote unless we do as we're told.

People are so distracted and divided over the vaccinated/unvaccinated they seem oblivious to what's happening.

Nope, not bothered. Just get vaccinated.

@Worldgonecrazy

Having the vaccine reduces the chance of hospitalisation and serious illness.

So does not being fat.

One makes money for pharmaceutical and health industries.

One doesn’t. One also has long term additional benefits for the NHS.

Amazing that only one method is being promoted.

If, instead of vaccine passports, we had BMI passports there would be an outcry. And before someone points out BMI measurements aren’t perfect measurements of fitness, I would point out that vaccination status is not a perfect measure of either immunity or contagious status.

Couldn’t agree with this more, albeit not something I’d dare say in public!

3 of us in a household of 5 are losing weight since covid.it’S a scary risk.