to be alarmed by vaccine passports

[Loustew12]

Am I the only person who find the proposed extension of this alarming, given what's happening in Austria, where police are out checking the unvaccinated are hiding among the vaccinated? Gibraltar has 100% vaccination rate and cases are through the roof. So clearly being vaccinated doesn't 'stop the spread'. Therefore, there is no logical or justification for segregating society. It's surely a slippery slope to go down?

And again I wonder (not entirely genuinely) why people feel it’s ok to repeatedly reach for the Holocaust here, rather than other instances of racial segregation.

Please do not underestimate how severe a needle phobia can be. It is not just "being scared".

I think key to understanding is to think of other phobias. More people have claustrophobia or arachnophobia for example. I do so I can apply how I’d feel if it was a necessary event.

If someone has none of these then maybe talk to someone who has to get insight.

@JassyRadlett

Have I misunderstood? Are we really better at testing?

We are much, much better at testing and have been for a long while now.

For a while, we’ve done between 10 and 15 tests per thousand per day. The last time we dropped below 10 was in the early spring.

France is currently between 3 and 5. There was a period in August when they broke through 19 but it was short lived, it’s stayed below 5 for the last month.

France is a lot better than eg Germany, which hasn’t gone above 2 since early May.

Many thanks for this Jassy and also the link. Very interesting. Perhaps the UK does have a 'gold' standard for testing after all.

I was always of the impression that Germany were the gold standard. Must have dreamt it!

I was always of the impression that Germany were the gold standard. Must have dreamt it!

I think they had a good early pandemic (and let’s face it, the UK had a very poor one.)

I think on the ‘trace’ side we’re still quite wobbly. But we do a fuckload of tests and arguably have a much better picture of the state of infections here.

time-limited public health measures.

Two weeks to flatten the curve... but here we are.

@Lisa2008

I find it so upsetting that there are actually people out there that think passports are a good idea. Our ancestors would be turning in their grave ! Have people actually forgot what hitler done? How all those people lost their freedom to work eat sleep or simply walk where they wanted ! It’s sick to the core and the masses of people that comply and play along with this tyranny are as equal to blame as the government ( who btw couldn’t give a dogs dump about your health )

More hyperbole.

proven government scientific advice

plenty of scientists disagree on the safety side. and government... always only wants whats best for us, right?

Two weeks to flatten the curve... but here we are.

Time limits have been enshrined in law on Covid public health measures in England. Parliament has voted to extend them and the powers of government to act within those frameworks.

Even without the time limits, it is an ahistorical and grossly offensive comparison.

grossly offensive comparison

defending creeping totalitarianism is grossly offensive. Vaccine IDs are on the table and not sure how long England can hold out.

is also offensive to be flippant about people's medical concerns re vaccinations.

Cats - keep speaking up. We have to. I’m not in anyone’s camp. No one should pigeon hole anyone. Each one of us is different with our different set of circumstances.

And nobody should be silenced.

defending creeping totalitarianism is grossly offensive. Vaccine IDs are on the table and not sure how long England can hold out.

I am not arguing that. Either for or against.

I am arguing very strongly that the attempts to draw a comparison between this measure and the destruction of European Jews grounded in centuries of persecution and discrimination is ignorant and offensive. Many, many Jews have asked people to stop appropriating this tragedy to further their own agenda.

Why don’t you let you arguments stand on their own merits? If you think it’s grossly offensive, make that case.

@SencosRshit

Cats - keep speaking up. We have to. I’m not in anyone’s camp. No one should pigeon hole anyone. Each one of us is different with our different set of circumstances.

And nobody should be silenced.

This attempt to claim people are being silenced because it’s pointed out that it’s offensive to draw a comparison to the Holocaust is not very convincing.

No one is silencing you. No one is asking you not to argue your case, about which you clearly feel passionately.

They’re just saying please stop using the Holocaust for your agenda.

Make your case on its merits. Argue it well. People will engage.

It’s almost as if you know bringing the Holocaust into it is going to cause people to become upset and ask you to stop, and then you can claim you’re being oppressed and silenced.

What an unbelievable thread this is.
For a long, long time children in many countries including the US have been unable to access school if they are unvaccinated.
(That's why there is such a growth in homeschooling and also why homeschoolers as a group particularly in the US have really high rates of measles, a horrible and completely avoidable disease which can cause blindness and occasionally death in children. )
That is not what's being proposed here at all.
No one is suggesting unvaccinated people will be banned from school or healthcare, but if they choose not to be vaccinated for ideological reasons they will have to accept that they can't access parts of society that might be risky for people with long term conditions or actual needle phobia who don't have the luxury of that choice.
You still have the freedom to choose not to be vaccinated. Stop complaining.

No one is suggesting unvaccinated people will be banned from school or healthcare, but if they choose not to be vaccinated for ideological reasons they will have to accept that they can't access parts of society

That’s not the case in England though, so not everyone has to accept this.

It may not happen. It seems we are less keen than other countries so it hasn’t been implemented yet

I don't live in England- @MarshaBradyo which is just about the only country in the entire of Europe that doesn't have vaccine apps. The other 3 UK countries all use them

@visitingagain

I don't live in England- *@MarshaBradyo* which is just about the only country in the entire of Europe that doesn't have vaccine apps. The other 3 UK countries all use them

I know we are the last of the few.

We might not need to bring in plan b which uses them

It is also offensive to be flippant about people's medical concerns re vaccinations.

It is also offensive to be flippant about people's medical concerns re Covid.

If people stuck to their medical concerns, and still accepted that we should have a right to protection against disease, that would be one thing. But no, the attitude in some quarters is that any government request to do anything to protect others from the horrors of disease and death is 'creeping totalitarianism'. And no, it is NOT in most cases just because vaccinations 'put something into your body' because (a) if this were the case, there would be just as much concern about food safety standards; and (b) before vaccines, people were making the same objections to governments and even private organizations requesting that people use face coverings. The attitude is 'It's more important to me not to be told what to do, than to protect others from disease'.

@ddl1

It is also offensive to be flippant about people's medical concerns re vaccinations.

It is also offensive to be flippant about people's medical concerns re Covid.

If people stuck to their medical concerns, and still accepted that we should have a right to protection against disease, that would be one thing. But no, the attitude in some quarters is that any government request to do anything to protect others from the horrors of disease and death is 'creeping totalitarianism'. And no, it is NOT in most cases just because vaccinations 'put something into your body' because (a) if this were the case, there would be just as much concern about food safety standards; and (b) before vaccines, people were making the same objections to governments and even private organizations requesting that people use face coverings. The attitude is 'It's more important to me not to be told what to do, than to protect others from disease'.

Yes it is important for people to choose

Which is why I think this line of argument has a negative impact

You still have the freedom to choose not to be vaccinated. Stop complaining.

Job loss is not a choice. Its blackmail. What next? Withold benefits? Stop pensions?

(a) if this were the case, there would be just as much concern about food safety standards

I quite remember the horse meat scandal. What an outcry it was, even though nobody died from it.

(b) before vaccines, people were making the same objections to governments and even private organizations requesting that people use face coverings.

Initially masks seemed like common sense. Not anymore though.

Initially masks seemed like common sense. Not anymore though.

Interesting new evidence on masks and other NPIs here. Summary here.

Why don’t they seem like common sense?

(The presentation in the Guardian is a bit hyperbolic, TBH, and oversells it. Sorry for linking to it. Focus on the study, there’s good stuff in there, and the impact of masks in good quality studies is still significant.)

Why don’t they seem like common sense?

It was sensible to wear them to a place like supermarket or hospital. But when it was required to wear them when walking alone in fresh air... sense went out of window.

@CatsArePeople

Why don’t they seem like common sense?

It was sensible to wear them to a place like supermarket or hospital. But when it was required to wear them when walking alone in fresh air... sense went out of window.

I’m not sure where you are, but your complaint seems to be one of setting, rather than initially vs now.

In high risk settings, you think they would still have benefit?

That Guardian article will be linked by many now.

I do still wear a mask on PT but I think it’s good to note fatigue im population

Anything that says pretty much you need to do more… and more for another group who are now at less risk than before is going to put people off imo