To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

Hmm. A lot of the jobs you suggest sound very physical, and out in all weathers.

I'm a middle aged, middle class female professional. Tarmac laying doesn't sound my cup of tea, to be honest. Not does long distance lorry driver. Many lorry drivers are away from home quite a bit. I had children to raise around my work.

DH is a construction professional and spends a lot of time on roofs in the rain as well as in the office. I'm now a public sector middle manager but my job before that wasn't office based. Inside, yes, but not in an office. I was crap at anything practical at school. My SIL has a fine art degree but is now a french polisher.

I think there's been an focus on getting people to go to 'University' over the last 20 years that it's left people behind.

It's made the education system brutal that if you're not academically clever or good at passing the exams, you've been left behind. However, the continuation of cuts to the FE sector and the financial barriers there are means that adult learners who would be perfect for these skilled careers cannot take up the jobs in construction sector because they need to find unskilled jobs to survive.

If Level 1 and Level 2 courses for adult learners over 25+ without no GCSE's were free, you could upskill the workers to fill the voids in construction. The lifetime skills guarantee over gives people for over 25+ a free Level 3 qualification if you haven't got one already which doesn't help the people who need Level 1's and Level 2's too.

A lot of the "high paid" jobs you mention will be on a self employed basis, i.e. no holiday pay, no sick pay, no pension, provide/pay your own tools/equipment/transport, and with the outside jobs, no pay when you can't work due to bad weather or suppliers not delivering the materials on time.

Contrast that to a cushy office job where you get your full pay whether there's work or not, whether it's bad weather or not, plus at least 28 days paid holidays, statutory sick/maternity pay, redundancy/notice, and compulsory employers pension contributions.

See the difference?

@Dhsidisndi

I think there's been an focus on getting people to go to 'University' over the last 20 years that it's left people behind.

I'd go back a lot further to the 60s when secondary moderns were scrapped in favour of "comps" which were generally a lot more academic and didn't cater for the "hands on" type of people. The whole ethos was towards passing academic exams rather than what sec mods had previously done, which was concentrate more on manual skills.

Part of the problem with labouring is that it is often age limited, as in it is not a job you can do to retirement, sure some might manage it but as you get older you may well not be able to carry on if your health and body can't keep up.

@MadMadMadamMim

Hmm. A lot of the jobs you suggest sound very physical, and out in all weathers.

I'm a middle aged, middle class female professional. Tarmac laying doesn't sound my cup of tea, to be honest. Not does long distance lorry driver. Many lorry drivers are away from home quite a bit. I had children to raise around my work.

Yeah my dh is mid 30s but he’d say the same thing. He has a nice cosy 9-5 office job, with an hour for lunch. He’d rather do that for less - but comfortable money - than faff about in all weathers outside or driving down motorways!

A lot of the "high paid" jobs you mention will be on a self employed basis, i.e. no holiday pay, no sick pay, no pension, provide/pay your own tools/equipment/transport, and with the outside jobs, no pay when you can't work due to bad weather or suppliers not delivering the materials on time.

This. Plus I think it would be pretty difficult to sustain until retirement age.

Also, the average salary for an accountant might be 35k but that will include younger people on less money - experienced corporate accountants are probably on considerably more. Same with most professions - there's less or no career progression for manual labourers.

[quote Badbadbunny]@Dhsidisndi

I think there's been an focus on getting people to go to 'University' over the last 20 years that it's left people behind.

I'd go back a lot further to the 60s when secondary moderns were scrapped in favour of "comps" which were generally a lot more academic and didn't cater for the "hands on" type of people. The whole ethos was towards passing academic exams rather than what sec mods had previously done, which was concentrate more on manual skills.[/quote]
I think it's a travesty that it's always been neglected, we need to make vocational training as important. There needs to be a destigmatisation of vocational training. It could be used for a world for good especially in this current climate.

But yes going to the first point - I do work in an office and I do find that there are a lot of middle-class people working in offices too. I think it might be a parental thing too - if you come from a long line of people working in professional occupations, you're going to follow in those footsteps.

Well, truck driving and forklift driving aren't very physical at all. But a lot of blue collar jobs certainly are.

I guess I just don't understand this drive to gentrify the working classes when many would likely feel more at home in the trucking world than in a corporate headquarters surrounded by MC folk called Quentin and Jeremy.

And IMO it's much easier to scale up a plumbing/electrical business and earn £100k than it is to do this in the corporate world. If you work for a big corporation you can't exactly strike out on your own as a competitor like many workmen do (going from being an employee, to SE, to a ltd company, then an SME, etc). And if you're earning £100k in a salaried job you're probs working bloody hard and dealing with a fair bit of stress.

One of our groundwork contractors is only about 30 and he's absolutely raking it in - just bought a car costing close to £200k. Not even the most intellectual guy. Has loads of Polish guys grafting for him and just gets the job done. No 'corporate strategy', KPIs, management meetings, etc.

If I could go back in time I reckon I'd probably do an apprenticeship and start my own contracting business. The work is there for the taking.

Lorry drivers might not take work home with them but they work in horrible conditions and to get that kind of money you'll be working a lot of unsociable hours (depending on load). If they all made £50k that easily like the government made out they did, we wouldn't have a shortage!!!

I'd like to add I'm not middle class, I come from a long line of families working in vocational professions.

What about the fact that a lot of people find office jobs (whatever they are!) interesting and intellectually stimulating. I don’t just work to earn money!

@Dhsidisndi

I think there's been an focus on getting people to go to 'University' over the last 20 years that it's left people behind.

It's made the education system brutal that if you're not academically clever or good at passing the exams, you've been left behind. However, the continuation of cuts to the FE sector and the financial barriers there are means that adult learners who would be perfect for these skilled careers cannot take up the jobs in construction sector because they need to find unskilled jobs to survive.

If Level 1 and Level 2 courses for adult learners over 25+ without no GCSE's were free, you could upskill the workers to fill the voids in construction. The lifetime skills guarantee over gives people for over 25+ a free Level 3 qualification if you haven't got one already which doesn't help the people who need Level 1's and Level 2's too.

Some really interesting points.

I know what I prefer. I would rather earn less and be working from home or hybrid working. Those work you talked about are hard physical labour and a lot less flexibility in hours.

FYI, I’m in an ‘office’ job and we are no longer required to go into the office except for specific meetings. Which has happened once since start of Covid. I can go to children’s nativity, school concerts, sports day, almost anything unless it clashes with those meetings I can’t move.

PPs are right - I used to have a job where I would help people who were long term unemployed and many of them were older men who had had manual jobs but now were too old. Either their health wouldn't allow them to do the same work, or they were being passed over for younger fitter men who could work much faster. It was really sad, as they had very few skills that would qualify them for any other type of work.

But even you say you’d ‘start your own contracting business’ not that you’d want to do the manual graft yourself. You’re talking about running a business, ie an office job!

I guess I just don't understand this drive to gentrify the working classes when many would likely feel more at home in the trucking world than in a corporate headquarters surrounded by MC folk called Quentin and Jeremy.

for boring stereotypes and classist assumptions.

You are not asking people themselves what they want to do. There is a reason people don't want to be truck drivers - it is unsafe, lonely, hard work and you don't see much of your kids. Or tarmac layers - pretty repetitive work in cold weather half the year.

Office jobs are generally 'knowledge worker' jobs. Intellectually stimulating (which being a fork-lift truck driver might not be), can keep doing those in any weather and until you want to retire. I've never worked or known a Quentin though.

I'm from a long line of labourers, truck drivers, digger drivers, factory workers and nah, fuck that. I don't like getting up in the middle of the night, I don't like being out in all weathers, I don't like hard physical work, I don't like driving to time limits, I look shit in high vis. None of those jobs seem very woman friendly either - I recently reported a workman who said I had a nice arse as I walked past so glad to see sexist behaviour is still alive and kicking.

I'll stick with office life thanks. It's not all about the money.

I agree OP, I’m on the railway as is DH. He works all hours and yes he earns 6 figures but he bloody earns it. Nights/weekends/Christmas/Easter etc. There is money out there to be made in manual jobs and in the railway at least there is clear progression, DH started at the bottom.

I think partly it’s society, manual Labour is seen as ‘less than’ and no one wants to be on social media being seen to be laying roads or whatever.

And god help them if they had to work outside in the rain 🙄

@SwedishEdith

Office jobs are generally 'knowledge worker' jobs. Intellectually stimulating (which being a fork-lift truck driver might not be), can keep doing those in any weather and until you want to retire. I've never worked or known a Quentin though.

Most office jobs are bullshit, designed to keep the masses busy 9-5 so that they don’t get ideas above their station.

@Cactu

But even you say you’d ‘start your own contracting business’ not that you’d want to do the manual graft yourself. You’re talking about running a business, ie an office job!

Yes, after doing the job myself for a number of years. This is what a lot of people seem to miss. If you're ambitious you become a foreman etc and manage rather than graft. There are also lots of less physical options as you get older like driving excavators etc. I believe the average for a digger is about £38k but many pay more. Guys onsite at current project are on about £200 a day. Plenty of other options too - shovel trucks, jcb's, crane, etc.

However, managing construction projects is definitely not going to involve sitting at a desk all day like many office workers.

* I know what I prefer. I would rather earn less and be working from home or hybrid working. Those work you talked about are hard physical labour and a lot less flexibility in hours.*

^This

It's because those jobs cap out at 40-50k, with experience.

the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites.

Anyone can call themselves an "accountant". Most middle class professionals will be chartered accountants. An experienced chartered accountant, 10 years post qualifying (so aged 35) in London, can often be on 100k (all the ones I know are). And it can go much higher.