To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

It's worth remembering that if the weather is bad enough, people who work in outdoor construction simply can't do their jobs. If they're self-employed, they don't get paid. As well as being physically demanding, that sort of work is also often dirty and can be dangerous. Yet we all rely on plumbers, carpenters, electricians and bricklayers. We should really value such work more, rather than thinking it's too highly paid.

Most office jobs are bullshit, designed to keep the masses busy 9-5 so that they don’t get ideas above their station.

We had a gas leak once. Took three teams to sort - one to dig the hole, one to fix the leak and one to repair the mess. Oh, and another team to take away the 'Warning' sign. Each of the first 3 teams told us they'd be sitting in their van until x hour as they didn't want to be called onto another job.

People don’t just choose their jobs for the money. I’m sure I could earn more as a bricklayer. I want a job which is mentally stimulating, which is possibly more a MC thing?

I don't know if it's a question of 'middle classes'. I'd say that an office job is better than an equivalent manual job for health reasons etc as pp mentioned.

However not everyone can get a highly paid office job. I wonder why all those people on NMW don't get manual jobs instead (part-time working, disablity etc excepted)

YABU. I have several friends who have worked in the trades. They only make good money for part of their working life. All of them have ended up with dodgy knees or dodgy backs and had to go into lower-paid work.
Also, many of the salaries I see middle-class people talking about for these kind of roles are not average pay rates.

Yeah my dh is mid 30s but he’d say the same thing. He has a nice cosy 9-5 office job, with an hour for lunch. He’d rather do that for less - but comfortable money - than faff about in all weathers outside or driving down motorways!

Fair enough. One man's poison and all that...

But IMO office work is much more stressful in general. Deadlines, office politics, corporate image/reputation. There's a current thread with OP stressing out about doing a presentation and it brought back so many memories.

I'd much rather earn £50k cruising along listening to the radio or talking to a mate on hands free personally, but each to their own. I also find site work busy but not the same rush as office stuff. You also tend to be a fairly close knit team with the odd grumpy bastard, whilst I've seen a lot more backstabbing and bitchiness in offices. I wonder if part of it is because you're much more likely to be in competition with your colleagues in an office, in terms of wanting to be promoted.

Also to get 47k off 180 per day you're assuming working 5 days a week 52 weeks a year.

A professional accountant will often get 6 weeks paid leave per year, can work some days from home so incurring less travel costs, is likely to have decent pension contributions worth another 10% or so of salary.

So your contractor surfacer is down to 41,400 p.a. and that's assuming they've got work every single day of the year, 46 weeks a year.

Knock off 15% because they need to contribute to their own pension - no one else is. 6k off. Down to 35k.

Knock off petrol costs driving to sites, maybe some tools & other gear, could easily be another 2-3k.

Suddenly it's really not that appealing compared to my job (chartered accountant, london role). I work primarily from home, 7h a day, on 92k basic, bonuses etc on top, lots of nice benefits, healthcare etc, good pension, generous maternity pay.

I have a few family members who got manual jobs. By the time they reached their 50’s they were starting to struggle physically after decades of manual work. They didn’t really have the transferable skills to then do a less physically demanding job and have all really struggled in securing work. That would put me off.

Accountants should be earning more than the £35k you mention.
In Surrey, on Reed, there are 300 adverts for an accountant at £60k to £80k.

I worked for an Accountancy Practice last year and the lowest salary was £80k.

I think a lot of those jobs are very hard and a lot dint have good terms and conditions.
But I dont get the drive for university either. I think the whole education strategy for the country was designed by people who went to oxbridge then into politics and funded a system based on what worked for them as obviously in their mind they are the pinnicle of everything so people should aim to be like them.
Further Education has been decimated. Even GCSEs dont work for half the population.

On slightly different note, going back to the physical health bit, heart disease is pretty much the biggest killer and I'd imagine sedentary job doesn't help this.

Agree with Beeskit, every experienced qualified Accountant I know is on £100k+.

I went to a very middle class school (not in the UK) and a lot of my peers have become doctors, vets and dentists - not office work but less physical than truck driving or roofing!

Sometimes I wish I was more capable of doing a trades job as it actually sounds quite interesting to me. At least you really achieve something every week, much more interesting than endless planning meetings and spreadsheets. Alas, I'm 5ft3, useless as a driver and just don't have the aptitude or physique to deal with tarmac laying or plumbing.

For example, the truck drivers pay. If you look into it it is truck drivers working very anti-social hours and long hours who get those high rates.
For example look at these truck driver adverts. Most are between £11 and £15 per hour.

www.totaljobs.com/jobs/truck%20driver?

Tarmacing job £13 an hour here.

www.totaljobs.com/jobs/tarmac%20operative?

Your company is looking for someone self-employed on a daily rate. That isn't actually that high for a daily self-employed rate.

Interesting post. While I don’t love office life, the jobs you’ve mentioned all sound really unappealing. I’m perfectly ok with the idea that someone earns a packet setting up their own business - good for them. I’m not interested in establishing a trades business, though, so clearly that’s not for me. I don’t know if there are barriers to MC people doing these roles/setting up these businesses, but imagine if there are they are self-imposed. It’s not a situation that needs remedying like WC people not pursuing typically MC careers because they feel uncomfortable or don’t have the ‘right’ look or accent.

In any case, my mum lived next door to a self-employee builder who was otherwise very stereotypically MC, so they are out there!

I think it’s infinitely more of a problem that women aren’t doing these higher paid manual roles. The non-professional jobs that women go into aren’t known for their pay or progression. That is a concern.

OP, do you really think that tradesmen don't have deadlines and workplace politics to deal with? I've been doing up my house recently and had about 15 assorted tradesmen round. Some of them chat about their work and at the moment they are swamped with work and having to juggle multiple jobs/deadlines with Brexit-related shortages of both materials and labour. They also - even the self-employed ones - have to deal with work-related politics, it's just that it doesn't take place in an office. Where you've got people, you've got politics. That's how humans work.

Managing construction projects does end up being a desk job though, albeit a desk in a site office. The PMs on a construction job rarely go out on site, they are usually in meetings, with the project or their parent companies.

I was a senior manager on a £500m construction project. I went on site twice a month.. I just didn’t need to otherwise. My job was to deliver the project, not supervise the build.

@DeepaBeesKit

It's because those jobs cap out at 40-50k, with experience.

the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites.

Anyone can call themselves an "accountant". Most middle class professionals will be chartered accountants. An experienced chartered accountant, 10 years post qualifying (so aged 35) in London, can often be on 100k (all the ones I know are). And it can go much higher.

Yes, some can get the well paid London jobs, but out in the regions, even experienced qualified chartered accountants at manager level are often advertised at £40-£50k salary level. Top London jobs aren't indicative of wages in the regions.

Tradesmen earn good money, but work physically hard. I know bricky, builder, electrician's, aged 50+ and their bodies are beaten!

What about the fact that a lot of people find office jobs (whatever they are!) interesting and intellectually stimulating. I don’t just work to earn money!

I must have been in the wrong office jobs then! I worked in offices for 46 years and spent a good deal of that time being bored silly - and I did work just to earn money. Since taking redundancy three years ago I have done some temp jobs which are classed as labouring - I enjoyed them more, my back didn't ache from sitting so much, and although I got tired to begin with my body soon got used to the manual work. If I could have my time back again I wouldn't go anywhere near an office. I agree with you OP.

I think it's worth pointing out that IMO you need to be diligent when choosing the type of work you do just like with office work. For example, you can be extremely well educated but earn peanuts in academia, so that might not be a good choice for the money focused, just like how some trades don't offer much room for growth.

Many people will have got into trades at a young age and perhaps not have really given much thought to it. I was lucky to have a good education and the freedom to make a carefully considered career change.

I work for an SME house builder who are growing extremely rapidly. We've got eight years of work already booked and turn away a lot as we don't want to bite off more than we can chew. I'm also shareholder and buying more shares every month, which is of course a risk but one which I think will pay off.

Academics can in some cases earn a lot of money.

@KrispyKremeDream

I think it's worth pointing out that IMO you need to be diligent when choosing the type of work you do just like with office work. For example, you can be extremely well educated but earn peanuts in academia, so that might not be a good choice for the money focused, just like how some trades don't offer much room for growth.

Many people will have got into trades at a young age and perhaps not have really given much thought to it. I was lucky to have a good education and the freedom to make a carefully considered career change.

I work for an SME house builder who are growing extremely rapidly. We've got eight years of work already booked and turn away a lot as we don't want to bite off more than we can chew. I'm also shareholder and buying more shares every month, which is of course a risk but one which I think will pay off.

Start getting more women into trades! ^^

If you're ambitious you become a foreman etc and manage rather than graft.

But it is about more than ambition.. there couldn’t possibly be enough foreman roles for every labourer to move into once they get older.

Not to mention that market conditions can’t support every older labourer setting up their own construction company once their physical abilities decline.

My BIL works hard labour, mainly outside, earns good money but he is 50 now and it is physically killing him. He has loads of injuries and aches and pains. He should have really started a company and contracted the work out at this stage but he is self employed and has no holidays sick pay or time off. He won’t be able to keep doing this until 60+ .
He loves the job though and is very good at it, I think an office job would have mentally killed him.