To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

I do a physical, outdoors job. One that's often listed on here as something anyone can do to earn some extra cash. Yet I see so many people try it and give up once they realise how relentless it can be.

I'm a dog walker. I run my own business. I earn around £100 a day working 4.5 hours a day on average, which is around £20 an hour, give or take. Lots of people think it's a nice, cushy job with great hours and good earnings.

And it is.

But I work in all weathers. I'm outside in 50mph winds, driving rain and mud up to my knees. My car takes a battering - it's constantly covered in a coating of mud, sand, grass and dog hair. My clothes get absolutely filthy. I come home covered in sweat, slobber, dog hair, mud, paw-prints and more.

Don't get me wrong, I love what I do but it's certainly much more physically demanding than sitting in a warm, dry office all day. Lots of people couldn't do what I do, day-in, day-out.

OP is your construction sector job manual, or office based? If the latter, why haven't you jacked it in yourself to become a tarmacker like you think all those poor working class people who you've decided are intimidated by people called Quentin should?

@julieca

For example, the truck drivers pay. If you look into it it is truck drivers working very anti-social hours and long hours who get those high rates. For example look at these truck driver adverts. Most are between £11 and £15 per hour.

www.totaljobs.com/jobs/truck%20driver?

Tarmacing job £13 an hour here.

www.totaljobs.com/jobs/tarmac%20operative?

Your company is looking for someone self-employed on a daily rate. That isn't actually that high for a daily self-employed rate.

Of course there are loads of craply paid driving jobs, and dare I say many of these would've previously been done by Eastern Europeans.

Woodland Group (who supply supermarkets) are offering £45-£60k dependent on shift. Even Brakes (small Class 2 vehicle delivering food to restaurants) are offering £50k in some areas and that's just unloading cages like a glorified van driver.

Agencies are paying £20-£25 p/h for supermarket work.

Don't get me wrong, it's not going to appeal to Mr Oxbridge future CEO, but I see so many people with degrees stuck in dead end £35k office jobs they hate and sometimes think they might be pleasantly surprised by some of the alternatives.

Yes you really did @gofg! I’ve never worked in a boring job. Life’s too short to spend 8 hours a day hating what you do. But I guess this goes back to OP’s MC point - having the resources to be able to find the right job rather than just taking whatever you can get.

Laying tarmac isn't exactly stimulating for the little grey cells. There's very little career progression and you have to spend all day outside, in all weathers. The pay is good but you just do what you're told to do, there's no opportunity for independent thought and you have only have a few years before your body is broken. That is not exactly the middle class dream of educated folk. If you fancy it though, go for it!

I'm addition to the reasons already given by PP, most manual jobs are not intellectually challenging. So even if they did pay the same long te, lots of people would be put off by that.

Long term, that should say.

Are teachers not middle class now?

@KrispyKremeDream

Well, truck driving and forklift driving aren't very physical at all. But a lot of blue collar jobs certainly are.

I guess I just don't understand this drive to gentrify the working classes when many would likely feel more at home in the trucking world than in a corporate headquarters surrounded by MC folk called Quentin and Jeremy.

And IMO it's much easier to scale up a plumbing/electrical business and earn £100k than it is to do this in the corporate world. If you work for a big corporation you can't exactly strike out on your own as a competitor like many workmen do (going from being an employee, to SE, to a ltd company, then an SME, etc). And if you're earning £100k in a salaried job you're probs working bloody hard and dealing with a fair bit of stress.

One of our groundwork contractors is only about 30 and he's absolutely raking it in - just bought a car costing close to £200k. Not even the most intellectual guy. Has loads of Polish guys grafting for him and just gets the job done. No 'corporate strategy', KPIs, management meetings, etc.

If I could go back in time I reckon I'd probably do an apprenticeship and start my own contracting business. The work is there for the taking.

You're wrong, it's difficult to scale up plumbing/electrical contracting businesses, I've been doing exactly that over 25 years and it's very difficult to take a business that is essentially 1 or 2 people and scale it up and put real value into the business beyond the original principals being very good at the trade side. It's a difficult leap in terms of gaining enough and large enough works, bringing people in to provide value,continuity and succession beyond the original principals and make a business that can be sold on as going concern. To take out £100k/annum out of an electrical contracting business certainly wouldn't be stress free.

You'd be surprised just how much work you're groundworker example is doing, I bet his phone doesn't stop from 7.30am onwards and ground works is very much a who you know game until you hit significant scale. As for the car, Dopey bollox us probably spending all his money on it to give it the big one. No one with sense buys a car at that value until you're regularly bringing in considerably more than that.
He'd need several 100 guys to get anywhere near that car for a year as a gross let alone a net figure.

You've looked on from the outside and thought anyone can do that- you're very wrong
I paid my best earning tradesman considerably over £100k last tax year, that was around 98% on price work, he simply wouldn't have the minerals to earn that on his own and also doesn't feel the need.

@PinkArt

OP is your construction sector job manual, or office based? If the latter, why haven't you jacked it in yourself to become a tarmacker like you think all those poor working class people who you've decided are intimidated by people called Quentin should?

Agggh, wrote a really long post and lost it so not going to retype it all on my phone.

I started delivering mortar and cement which is quite a physical job for a female (lifting on the chute etc). Ended up getting involved in all sorts of projects and now don't really have a job title (like most of the bosses, who mainly have other small businesses and started as investors). They want me to get all my certs next and become a site manager for a bit even if it's not my final role.

Why don't I want to be a surfacer? A better question is why wouldn't an 18yo labourer earning £18k want to be a surfacer and earn £47k for a similar amount of physical graft?

I don't understand the push to get more wc people to uni rather than into trade/construction jobs where there are plenty of options to progress into management. It seems that white wc boys are right at the bottom education wise and that many who don't do well at school fall through the cracks and end up in dead end jobs or unemployed, despite genuine shortages and decent wages available in jobs that don't require good soft skills etc.

That's extremely hard labour. It breaks and wrecks your body before its natural progression, so not great in the long run

I'd much rather earn £50k cruising along listening to the radio or talking to a mate on hands free personally, but each to their own.

Going to the toilet on the side of the road, trying to find parking so you don't illegally drive too long but your employer won't pay for you to park at service stations, if you try to park at a service station the spaces are taken by bloody caravan drivers thinking thinking they can use the trucker section, sleeping in your truck, shite dirty facilities in this country, road works, middle lane hoggers, and people bitching at you constantly for hogging the roads. And at risk of being attacked for your load, don't get me started if you have to try to get back to the UK from mainland Europe. All of that and very unlikely to be on £50k for most people.

You're being extremely ignorant to the life of a trucker in the UK.

And it's interesting that a joke about Quentins ruffles a lot more feathers than the many derogatory stereotypes of builders/workmen we see on here. No doubt it reflects the demographic on here but also makes me wonder if the evident stigma is what puts off a lot of mc people from these professions.

Well OP your question doesn’t quite make sense in that case. Cuz you’re not targeting the ‘middle classes’ if by middle class we mean people who would reasonably be expected to earn a higher salary.

You’re talking about those who’d be stuck in dead end jobs, why would they not consider manual jobs?

Also to all the people thinking ‘office work’is more intellectually stimulating bugger off! There are a lot of pointless office jobs.

Looking at the pay is so narrow minded. Yes there is a lot of money to be earned but it’s not as easy as you imply otherwise why would anyone manage a site or a project for less than the lads are being paid?

Assuming earning 50k being a driver is easy just sitting driving while talking to mates and not physically demanding or stressful is insulting. You already mentioned heart disease in sedentary jobs.

Groundwork is proper hard physical work in crappy conditions. Have you actually watched those lads working in the cold and wet or even the heat? Labouring, roofing, bricklaying etc causes many injuries and degeneration to their physical condition.

You clearly have no idea of the bullying on sites and men can backstab just as well as women. Your eyes are closed or your wearing rose tinted glasses.

And your groundwork contractor just getting the job done with ‘no corporate strategy’ how many economic immigrants has he exploited to get there?

There are massive shortages because the government stopped apprenticeships, don’t fund training and didn’t support the construction industry during the recession.

Have you asked your white collar construction colleagues why they are not out there laying tarmac having an easy win rather than earning less in a stressful office?

Your perception seems lacking.

Also I may be a bit biased here cuz DP family are tradespeople hehehehe

You're being extremely ignorant to the life of a trucker in the UK.

🤣🤣🤣

So presumably you too have worked as a trucker, given that you seem to be so much more informed about my previous job than I am?

I was on 35k before I even qualified as an accountant. 3 years PQE and over £70k before benefits. I’m not a high earner in my cohort. The figures aren’t always accurate.

I get to wfh, i never put myself in physical harm, I get sick pay for 6 months, 6 months full maternity, generous pension, corporate dinners, social events every week paid for. It is simple why I ended up there but I come from a working class background

To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

It's so, when we have a revolution, we can easily eliminate the bourgeoisie and are left with only useful workers.

@gingerroot

I was on 35k before I even qualified as an accountant. 3 years PQE and over £70k before benefits. I’m not a high earner in my cohort. The figures aren’t always accurate.

I get to wfh, i never put myself in physical harm, I get sick pay for 6 months, 6 months full maternity, generous pension, corporate dinners, social events every week paid for. It is simple why I ended up there but I come from a working class background

But you present a small elite % of the population that isn't very attainable for most wc lads. Or certainly not the easiest path for most to make £40k+.

I do office work, admin support, not highly paid, no Quentins in sight. I still prefer a job where I can stay warm, go to the toilet when I want to, take breaks when I want to, etc.

@PlanktonsComputerWife

To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

It's so, when we have a revolution, we can easily eliminate the bourgeoisie and are left with only useful workers.

Yes, because the office messenger boy or print room man is the 'bourgeoisie' lol.

I am working class and people like me sometimes do construction jobs because you can make more money. It’s not the whole reason but can be an important consideration, as working class people can’t generally rely family help to get on the housing ladder. If that’s something they aspire to, they have to pick work that ultimately can pay well.

My brother left school at 16 to do an apprenticeship in construction and now has his own successful business that employs 200 people. His philosophy is why get into debt doing a degree and end up earning a mediocre salary, when there’s an alternative. I went down the degree route and I have less money than him, although I have done ok and enjoy what I do. If I’d been a man I probably would have looked at construction careers rather than uni, as I like working outdoors and physical effort, but in the sexist 70s it didn’t feel like a serious option.

So presumably you too have worked as a trucker, given that you seem to be so much more informed about my previous job than I am?

Married to one, you can't seriously think what you're describing here pootling down the motorway listening to the radio earning £50k is remotely reflective of the vast majority of trucking jobs? Do you seriously think the reason we have a HGV driver shortage is purely because of misconceptions and there are thousands of £50k a year roles just sitting there unclaimed? If what you were describing was the norm, we would not be in the situation we are.

"I don't understand the push to get more wc people to uni rather than into trade/construction jobs where there are plenty of options to progress into management."

Are there really though? Lots of management jobs for tradesmen? I thought they were mainly self-employed so either an apprentice or their own boss? Are there really loads of management jobs where they get to sit on a chair and manage other people?