To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

@KrispyKremeDream

I probably wasn't clear enough with my original question. Likely because I'm just reflecting on all this rather than stating objective truth.

I'm not suggesting that everybody should do a manual job until retirement age. I'm talking more about people considering whether it might be an option to learn a trade rather than just go and do a random degree. Obv I see the value in a focused degree but my brother, for example, did an English degree and now works in a fairly dead end corporate job and his degree seems like a waste of £30k to me. He's still paying it back in his 30s!

You could, for example, train as a sparky, get involved in projects, possibly head up a commercial team, go in corporate H&S, start an SME. There are many options aside from doing either manual work all your life or administrative work.

If your brother is in his thirties then the absolute maximum tuition fees he would have been charged is £9k total. If he is 33 or older, or studied outside of England it would be £3k. Not per year. In total. The rest of what he's paying back would be a maintenance loan - presumably even if he had trained as a 'sparky' instead of going to uni he would still have had to pay rent and eat so would have incurred the same amounts, but would have had to pay it at the time rather than deferred. As some one who is the same age and is also paying it back, the interest rates are minimal and were 0% for a while after the 2008 recession.

This is obviously different for those who started post 2012 loan who will incur huge fees (but don't have to start paying anything back until after they earn £27000. I know loads of people who probably won't ever get to that threshold - is that a waste of a degree or is it a pretty good deal getting 3 years of free food and rent?

Also just because he isn't using his degree now doesn't mean he won't ever use it. I did a similar general degree and while none of my subsequent professional jobs have ever asked for 'an english literature degree' they've all asked for a degree at 2.1 or above.

For someone who is having a go at people who have never worked in trades making incorrect assumptions about them you are doing exactly the same thing - saying because the office jobs you worked at were stressful, boring or bitchy most are the same. 'Office jobs' span such a huge variety of roles, I assume you haven't worked in most of them. And then there's all the jobs that are neither 'office ones' nor 'manual workers' - teachers, doctors, nurses, cleaners, barristers, court ushers, wedding registrars...

YANBU to suggest that uni is not for everyone and more people should be encouraged towards trades and apprenticeships if that might be a better fit for them, but YABU to ascribe your limited experience of office working to every single job out there, and to not accept that for lots of people, for lots of reasons, office jobs are better paying and offer a better lifestyle than manual work.

I hated office environment. Obv not all office jobs are the same but they share a lot of characteristics. You have to be fairly conforming in most of them in terms of not having a nose ring etc, and most involve that whole office manners things which k don't really know how to describe. You don't speak to your boss like you would in most offices, you put on your professional persona. With my job I talk to my boss like I would somebody down the pub.

' You don't speak to your boss like you would your mates in most offices' I meant to say.

@onceandneveragain, totally agree with what you said.

Just to add that it is easier to go to uni when you are young and your friends are in the same stage of life rather than later in life, when most people will find it more difficult after long time without studying and/or financial responsibilities/kids, etc. You might or might not use your degree, but it is something to fall into.

Plus you could use what you learned in unexpected ways, for instance using the knowledge you acquired in your business degree for your company. Or your accountancy skills. Or whatever.

My experience has been that women in offices are much bitchier than other jobs I've worked in. Law office was the worst and when I searched it on here at the time there were loads of posts supporting my experience.

women in offices are much bitchier than other jobs

Very progressive I guess men just "banter" and that's all good.

Very progressive hmm I guess men just "banter" and that's all good.

Was interesting studies linked in the thread. Like, women massively prefer working for men over working for other women. They collaborate better with men than their own sex, and two men collaborate even better. And women are less prepared to help another woman the more senior she is to them at work.

@WhiteVanWoman91 studies or not "women are bitchy" is a sexist, unsubstantiated generalisation that provides no value but holds us back. I've personally thrived working in female dominated environments; I feel more supported and listened to. But then we aren't the kind of women that refer to each other as "bitches".

[quote userisi]@WhiteVanWoman91 studies or not "women are bitchy" is a sexist, unsubstantiated generalisation that provides no value but holds us back. I've personally thrived working in female dominated environments; I feel more supported and listened to. But then we aren't the kind of women that refer to each other as "bitches".[/quote]
Just as well I didn’t say “women are bitchy”. I’m saying my experience is that women tend to be bitchier in office environments. Plenty of people seem to agree. I don’t care if this rattles your cage tbh.

@WhiteVanWoman91 yes you're saying something entirely different

@KrispyKremeDream is there a reason you name changed to @WhiteVanWoman91 ?

@Gwenhwyfar I have an arts degree, so do many of my friends. The vast majority went into teaching, media, PR, sales or generic graduate schemes. A few people did do admin.
Starting salaries were quite low, yes, but over time we've all worked our way up and have decent enough salaries. Not big bucks but enough to afford to buy a house, have holidays and treats, and pay for childcare to return to work after having babies.
In comparison, every single one of the girls I knew at school who didn't go to uni became hairdressers/beauticians/care workers/hospitality or retail workers etc on not much more than minimum wage. They can only afford to rent on rough estates and gave up working as soon as they had kids because their wage would be swallowed up by childcare costs. Even if they'd stayed working, their earning potential would max out at around £23-£25k in those non graduate jobs.
Obviously this is all anecdotal but those statistics about arts graduates not being better off than those with just A Levels don't really ring true for me, not when you break it down by gender.

As for the OP...the posts keep getting more and more bizarre. Sounds like she couldn't hack it in her office-based graduate scheme and is now really bitter about people who work in offices. Which is a bit weird, if she's found what she enjoys and it pays well like she says, then why not just enjoy that instead of taking about "gimps in suits", wtf.

@TableFlowerss

**Considering I am a chartered accountant and have been for over 30 years, yes I do know!

I also know that literally ANYONE can call themselves an accountant and run or work in an accountancy practice. Many of the "production line" firms are exactly that. Some are owned and run by people who aren't qualified accountants and employ people who aren't qualified accountants. There's absolutely nothing to stop them doing that. HMRC will happily accept accounts/tax returns from unqualified accountants.

Try educating yourself. Do a google search for "accountants", then choose the bigger online firms, and you'll find very, very, few who say they're "chartered accountants", because most aren't! Compare that with a google search for local High Street accountants, and most will proudly include the words "chartered accountants" in their business name, letterheads, etc**

I couldn’t care less if you’re chartered accountant.

You should be the one to point out that a chartered accountant is a respected profession and a protected title.

The way you’re taking it’s like you’re dissing your own profession, which I find bizarre. People work hard to get that title and calling it like factory work is ridiculous.

Chartered accountancy is a respected profession and one I'm proud of. What I was talking about were the unqualified accountants who are free to call themselves such and own/operate accountancy practices.

"Obviously this is all anecdotal but those statistics about arts graduates not being better off than those with just A Levels don't really ring true for me"

Well, I think the stats tell us more than just your anecdotes don't they.

" every single one of the girls I knew at school who didn't go to uni became hairdressers/beauticians/care workers/hospitality or retail workers etc on not much more than minimum wage."

Yes, those are all low paid jobs, but some of them will not be paid much less than the graduates who ended up doing admin. The graduate jobs that women do also tend to be paid less than the ones men do so the issue there is probably the gender pay gap itself.

I do think that as women in general have lower physical strength, our earning potential in manual and physical work is lower than men's.

"As for the OP...the posts keep getting more and more bizarre. Sounds like she couldn't hack it in her office-based graduate scheme and is now really bitter about people who work in offices. Which is a bit weird, if she's found what she enjoys and it pays well like she says, then why not just enjoy that instead of taking about "gimps in suits", wtf."

It sounds more like she had a bad experience with the Tarquins. Not sure which sector it was, but it's obviously not the same in every office.

"And then there's all the jobs that are neither 'office ones' nor 'manual workers' - teachers, doctors, nurses, cleaners, barristers, court ushers, wedding registrars..."

Cleaner is a manual job and I'm pretty sure barristers spend quite a lot of time in the office as well as in court.

"You have to be fairly conforming in most of them in terms of not having a nose ring etc,"

But no uniform like you find in some jobs and no awful H&S outfit. At least office workers never have to wear a hair net and baseball cap or have to make sure they never go anywhere straight from work because their work makes them stink.

As for the OP...the posts keep getting more and more bizarre. Sounds like she couldn't hack it in her office-based graduate scheme and is now really bitter about people who work in offices. Which is a bit weird, if she's found what she enjoys and it pays well like she says, then why not just enjoy that instead of taking about "gimps in suits", wtf.

I don't hate individual people but I do hate office culture tbh. Especially the obsequious/sycophantic element and all the corporate politics. You'll nearly always see this when in a meeting with your boss and their superiors.

Now that I've escaped it I notice it all the more. Like the wheedling sales manager who has somehow blagged himself into our operational group chat. For a while, he was phoning me up every time I posted in the chat that I was about to pull out from a customer site due to them taking the piss/keeping me waiting, as is the company policy (only supposed to wait 15 mins if I've already called ahead).

It was always "oo, we don't want to rub them up the wrong they're an important customer. Let me try them again." Doesn't give a shit that they've been adding two hours onto my day for the past month by not being ready. Last time I lost my patience and said "well, maybe they should've been ready if they wanted the product" and put the phone down. Not heard a peep since, but I'll bet he's got his sales team dancing like trained ponies. I'm glad I'll never again have somebody like that determining my bonus and pay rises etc.

Agree with this. Most office jobs don't feel middle class unless you're in quite a senior/front office role.

@KrispyKremeDream
£35k for an accountant? Me thinks not. Much higher. Many earn £80k round here.

Yes, skilled staff are sought after, builders, bricklayers, tarmac layers. All the brickies I know earn £60k+, up to £100k, more if SE and a good business. But hard physical work.

Not just labouring, but anything physical, retail, catering, etc. I'm an office worker and there's no way I could convert to a standing/walking about job at my age, let alone something really physically demanding like a labourer.

Yes, but also I have an office job that is not mentally stimulating and it's still better than an arduous job like being a builder.

Sometimes but definitely not always. My husband has always been employed as a joiner and earns around £50k with holidays, pension etc. More young people should be guided to the trades, not everyone is suited to office life and it’s a good way of building a good life

That's not altogether surprising since we recieve messaging from childhood that men are the ones who should be in charge and many women struggle not to internalise that, and so have greater confidence in men. Also most women will have had more male bosses than female and familiarity often feels comfortable. Then there's the general way women are held to higher standards than men who's rudeness is framed as assertion, lack of support as 'business like', arrogance as self assurance, laziness as bring 'relaxed' etc. I'd imagine those things have a lot more to do with it than the possibility that there are special man brains and inferior lady brains that mean men make better bosses, wouldn't you?

The impact of physical labour on health and life expectancy is much harsher than an 'office job'. You will find more people who have worked in those roles living with disability and health impacts in their 50s than those who have been deployed in white collar roles. And the type of roles you mention carry more risk of injury and health problems that will impact the ability to earn continuously and may not have the same sick leave and benefits offered in desk jobs.

And there is of course the fact that some people enjoy using more intellectual or people facing skills.